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Kiton, The Dissect

Zegnamtl

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Jacket Style: 3 button rolled to 2 Dual Vent 1/4 lined on rear panel. Fully lined on two front panels “Flap pockets” Darted Size 40/42 Cashmere Long seam: Center of back, one full length seam, 2 smaller seams along rear/side edge 32” in length fabric trimmed neatly and folded under and sewn from each side, full length, 96 inches for three 32 inch seams. Machine sewn. 2x 13 inch rear/side seams Running from arm hole rear, leading to and ending at the vents. These are double sewn, one at closure, the fabric then folder over top of itself closing the seam and then sewn again. Machine sewn. 2x 21 inch Side long seams. Under arm pit to jacket bottom. Single seam. Excess material at fabric joint is not trimmed on outer side, but trimmed on inner side and the excess is used to baste the jacket’s lining to this. Basted by hand. This would represent attaching the canvass to the jacket at the point furthest away from the front edges and button area at the top most portion of the canvass only. Machine sewn seam, canvass hand sewn to excess with basting thread. 2x 9 inch darts. Single seam. Excess material at fabric joint is not trimmed on outer side, but trimmed on inner side and the excess is used to baste the jacket’s lining to this. Basted by hand. This would represent attaching the canvass to the jacket at the middles point of the canvass unit. Machine sewn seam, canvass hand sewn to excess with basting thread. Stitch inches: 208 inches. Vents: Two 9 1/2 inch vents. Double sewn. The vent is formed, a small strip of tape is sewn in at the vertical bend point to strengthen the fold and help it hold its form. The fabric edge is then sealed with a softer hand stitch. Tape machine sewn. Fabric fold Hand Sewn. Across the vents: The 15 1/2 inch horizontal section between the vents is trimmed perfectly straight and doubled folded then sewn. There is no tape on the fabric fold of this section. Hand Sewn. Vent area does not factor in the front panels, only from vent to vent. Stitch inches: 51 inches, 33 inches done by hand. Sleeves: 2 long seams, one 18 inches, one 17.5 inches. Single seam, no tape. Hand basted, some of the basting stitches remain in place. Lining is hand basted, again, some stitches remain inside the sleeve. This seam appears machine sewn through 2/3 of the length and hand sewn on the two ends of the seam. Sleeve cuffs are hand sewn. Fabric double folded under, 2 seams with a 2 inch white collar, double folded material to help keep the cuff shape and hold the lining in place. Sleeve lining is hand sewn. Lapels and Collar: Lapel and canvass piece on this jacket was not as I saw during my visit, this points me to believe there are at least three different approaches to this step used in the shop. One small white interlining (possibly cotton, it smelt like cotton during a burn test but does not feel like cotton to the bare hand, suggestions Manton?) is sewn under the lapel area that will be stitched and rolled. Then, the main layer, a small think square layer reinforces the upper breast area, the second “main” layer, then a cotton and felt padding. The joint is sealed with tape sewn with two rows of stitching by blind stitching. The canvass is hand basted, before being sent to the blind stitcher, the thread remains behind. ** This not the same as the Lapel Padding machine show in earlier threads. After the fact, I though some might mistake that for a blind stitching machine, it is not, I was using extreme examples to make a point. At the far end, basting tread is used to hold it to the excessive fabric left by the dart and the secondary long seam on their outer side, the inner side has been trimmed. 12 rows are stitched as sewn to form the lapel roll. Using a blind stitching machine in this manner allows the lapel to rolled to any degree as the row is being done, replicating the bend done by a tailor. These rows are sewn one at a time. The Kiton stitches are much looser than those I have seen in a bespoke tailor’s shop, I visited him and asked why. Softness of lapel and roll. He has me crunch his lapel in my hand, then crunch the Kiton. The Kiton’s is far softer. I ask how bad is it? To be using a blind stitcher? He laughs. Why is it bad he replies? The quick answer given is it saves 1 1/2 man hours, the stitch is more consistent, can be softer than by hand, and if the canvass is pulled over the machine as each row is stitch. He likes the way Kiton has done their’s and is happy with the chance to pull at it and feel the tension in the stitches. Shoulder: Hand Basted, the basting stitches remain in some spots. Two types of tape are used, very thin and tightly trimmed on the lower side (arm pit area) and thicker wider tape on the upper side, 7 inches in length starting from the center line reaching out 3.5 inches each way. The shoulder pad is pre made and machine padded. The padding is hand sewn, basting thread is used and remains. The approx. 24.5 inch circumference is hand sewn However! At first glance, the tape appears machine sewn. Easy to jump and say the seam is done by machine. Cutting the seam apart slowly, using an 8x loop, it becomes clear the main shoulder seam is sewn by hand. There are two seams of threads. Then sections of the tape are applied to hold the layers together after the first seam of those appear to be done by machine, or the world’s steadiest hand. This, reinforcing the top most part of the shoulder, just off the seam line towards the collar. This stitch is between the fabric and the tape, not the shoulder joint! Many of the finer details are easy to miss. We put an 8x loop to almost every seam on the jacket. The tailor estimates 3 man hours to complete the shoulders given the way they are assembled. Lining: Apron across shoulders; 26 inch hand sewn Chain Link stitching to close the fold of fabric at the bottom of the apron. This gives it an elastic effect as it stretches across your back. The lining appears to be hand stitched. One tailor felt it may have had the longest section done by machine and then the smaller end section and the vent area, arm holes etc. done by hand. The other said hand sewn for certain. The inconsistency in the stitching leads me more to hand sewing. Check the pictures closely, I believe all will agree it is hand sewn. There are sections that are so clean and others that show slight variation in pattern. Oxxford uses a machine (an old Singer style) to sew the longest seams of the lining finishing the edges by hand in the manner described above. Lining stitched inches: 270 Please note the lining was cut in many places before I started to dissect, the total number of seam inches is a rough estimate, it may be more, but it is no less. Pick Stitching: We measured approx. 124 inches of hand pick stitching We measured approx 63 inches of machine made pick stitching found on the lining at the outer side where it meets the fabric. Pockets: Pocket flaps, 6 1/4 inches. Pocket flaps have no inner lining or padding or “canvass” as seen with some fabrics. I assume that this step is based on how the fabric performs. The long seam (6 1/4 inches) of the pocket that attaches to the jacket body is double sewn. As are the approx. 2 inch vertical seams of the flap. Pocket edges are hand sewn and hand pick stitched. All inside pocket pouches are made of white cotton and pre made, machine sewn. The welted pocket appears to be done the same way. Buttons and button holes: 1 lapel button hole 3 main button holes, 6 working sleeve button holes. 1 sleeve button on each sleeve is sewn in place and is not a working button. The tailor estimates 3 man hours for 12 working buttons, this jacket has two duds for 10 hand sewn button holes. He likes the way the buttons are sewn, except for the inside breast pocket closure. Time break down: It is had for others to judge time, but with the guidance of two tailors who looked at this jacket with me, their thoughts are: This jacket represents about 15 or 16 man hours. The two largest time consumers are the button holes and the sleeve attachment. If this jacket was to be made using only hand stitched labor, estimated production time is pegged at 35 man hours. I won’t even try to make a conclusion for this group, This what we found and you can make your own choices. I am here to learn as much as I can and I want to thank The Truth for shipping this jacket to me and giving me the chance to do this. The sessions with the tailors was a great education, even my daughters found it interesting! Her fingers are seen in some pictures. Both tailors thought this jacket was very well made. Both were surprised by some details, in the positive and the negative. One thought Kiton was hand padded, the other said who cares, the softness of the blind stitching is beautiful. He felt the non massacred lapel complete with fabric and said it felt very nice, that was what counted most. I showed the Kiton web videos to both tailors, both instantly pointed out the video is showing a machine stitched lapel and asked why I felt there was misrepresentation. I personally do not feel misrepresented as I knew this to be the case. I have not endured the pushy salesman crap that some of you have. But that burden falls on the sales staff, not the company. De Matteis and Ciro’s daughter while at the plant were forth right with me during my encounters with them. Both De Matteis and the North American coordinator spoke of issues with sales staff. We all know what I feel about the BG NYC Kiton rep!!!! I would rather deal with Mark’s Warehouse staff than him. Does this dissection change my personal view of Kiton? Not in the least! ALL IMAGES COPYRIGHT PROTECTED Â
2007 AND RELEASED FOR VIEWING ON STYLE FORUM ONLY. NO REPRODUCTION OR PUBLICATION IN ANY FORMAT ELECTRONIC OR OTHERWISE. Images from Kiton Dissect: Loose stiching and wide rows, sewn one at a time on a blind stitcher. Note the tighter stictch and tighter rows found as used by other tailors. Different layers making the chest canavass and padding. The looseness of the stiching allows a soft lapel. Shoulder area, hand sewn, hand basted. Hand sewn fabric to tape, three seams, each reaching deeper through the layers. Dart excess fabric used to baste Canvass to: Collar area: The bottom row of stitching, hand sewn and sews the collar to the fabric and the brown tape. The top row tacks or bastes the assembly. The middle row only sews the tape to the cashmere fabric and does not enter the collar. Long Seams: Neatly trimmed, folded and sewn by machine. Vents and bottom seam area: Tape sewn in on the fold line to support the form of the vent. Lining and pockets: Hand sewn pockets. Machine sewn pocket pouches. The lining certain looks to be hand sewn. What appears to be machine made pick stitching on the front panel sections of the lining. Buttons and button Holes: Working sleeve button holes, one button is a dud. Button holes are well sewn. Hand sewn sleeves, interlining double folded to hold form of sleeve end and lining. Hand basted, some basting thread remains. Inside breast pocket, hand sewn, but sloppy on this example!
 

Artisan Fan

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Amazing dissection (you might want to resize to 900 pixels wide). Thanks Allen for doing this.


Seem like you found more handwork. Any idea how many hours of handwork based on this?

In any event, seems like good construction.
 

Artisan Fan

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You gave the hours...my bad. Just jumped to the pictures too quickly.
 

amerikajinda

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Awesome! Wonderful job, excellent pictures -- thank you for taking the time to do this to further educate us... you've provided a wonderful service!!! From one jacket cutter to another, I salute you, sir, with a poem... "O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done;\t The suit has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won;\t The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,\t While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:\t But O heart! heart! heart!\t O the bleeding drops of red,\t Where on the table my Kiton lies,\t Fallen cold and dead." Cheers!
 

username79

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Amazing work! Far better than my effort. From one jacket cutter to another, thank you.
 

Artisan Fan

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Yeah this is really educational Allen. Also, to make some hours estimates and draw some conclusion from trained tailors is really the best way to learn.
 

Zegnamtl

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$#@

I set a macro to down size the images but not far enough,
I will re size and re-post them.
 

Toiletduck

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I'm sure your post was bloody informative and awesome. But due to the size and ginormousity of the photos, it took me approximately 5 minutes to scroll down (w/o looking at the photos) to the bottom of the page. My computer can't handle it!
 

rnoldh

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Originally Posted by Artisan Fan
Amazing dissection (you might want to resize to 900 pixels wide). Thanks Allen for doing this.


Seem like you found more handwork. Any idea how many hours of handwork based on this?

In any event, seems like good construction.


Great post Alan.

AF, doesn't Alan and the tailors give the following estimate, which answers your question:

"Time break down:

It is had for others to judge time, but with the guidance of two tailors who looked at this jacket with me, their thoughts are:

This jacket represents about 15 or 16 man hours.
The two largest time consumers are the button holes and the sleeve attachment.

If this jacket was to be made using only hand stitched labor, estimated production time is pegged at 35 man hours
."

No surprises and I think the Kiton construction comes off as very good indeed.

If the sales staff and certain Kiton people are exaggerating about the total man hours (the supposed 25+ hours!), and about the construction being 100% hand made, you have to decide if that affects the value to your thinking.

NB: I was posting this while AF was posting that he saw the man hours quote.
 

amerikajinda

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Maybe they factored in 10 hours of espresso breaks...
 

antirabbit

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The Isaia will be on the way.....
 

Artisan Fan

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Originally Posted by rnoldh
Great post Alan.

AF, doesn't Alan and the tailors give the following estimate, which answers your question:

"Time break down:

It is had for others to judge time, but with the guidance of two tailors who looked at this jacket with me, their thoughts are:

This jacket represents about 15 or 16 man hours.
The two largest time consumers are the button holes and the sleeve attachment.

If this jacket was to be made using only hand stitched labor, estimated production time is pegged at 35 man hours
."

No surprises and I think the Kiton construction comes off as very good indeed.

If the sales staff and certain Kiton people are exaggerating about the total man hours (the supposed 25+ hours!), and about the construction being 100% hand made, you have to decide if that affects the value to your thinking.

NB: I was posting this while AF was posting that he saw the man hours quote.



Yes, I scanned through the text too fast missing the hours estimate. Kiton comes off quite good here I think. Still as I commented to The Truth...Kiton should not say 22 hours if the answer is 16 hours.

I am afraid Matt's joke may be modified to "Honey, I kissed your sister."
 

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