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Kiton Coat Authenticity

Rixon

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Hello all,

Rarely do I find myself tripped up these days, but I have a Kiton coat I bought and will likely rid simply because I don't care for double breasted, but it's on ISuit's site: https://isuit.it/kiton-coats-19oc80 and their affiliated eBay. It's certainly heavy and soft, but the construction has me concerned.

When looking at it, I have a few red flags:
1. The button's on the bottom go through the respective pockets, such that you can play with the threads in the pockets with your fingers.
2. The size in the pocket is different from the tags (48 vs. 50), internal and external.
3. I cannot find a direct picture of the coat in Kiton's campaign, but maybe I didn't look hard enough and sometimes not all items are.

Here are actual pictures for those experts: (Sorry some are rotated)
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Thanks,
Rix
 

BPL Esq

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Seems sketchy to me. Partly due to your comments, partly due to "Kiton Corporation" on the price tag, partly due to the buttonhole, and partly due to those horrible buttons.
 

dieworkwear

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Personally not convinced that anyone online can judge these things. Outside of really egregious counterfeits -- like a scarf that says Burpberry -- there's just too much going on in the market for people to tell. Some things:

1. Sometimes factory seconds make it out onto the market. So some of the defects you see may just be a sign that it's a factory second. I've had bespoke trousers made on Savile Row with the button "defect" seen in your photo. It's just a simple sewing mistake.

2. I once interviewed the head of an authentication department for a high-end consignment company. I asked this person how does one spot fakes. The general takeaway was: it's easy to spot bad fakes, but there are lots of good fakes now on the market and it's often impossible to tell. This is why this company requires secondary and tertiary evidence, such as store tags, receipts, and credit card bills. But you know, even those things can be faked. I think for the casual observer, the easiest way to understand this is by looking at "super fakes" in the watch market. If someone can duplicate a Rolex or Patek to such a high degree of precision, what chance does a garment have?

3. When people ask for authentication online, they're often asking on a forum full of enthusiasts (such as this one). Most enthusiasts are not experts on garment construction. Many can't even tell the difference between handsewing and machine sewing designed to look like handsewing. This may still be a meaningful check, as some may be able to spot egregiously bad fakes. But it doesn't give much reassurance.

My feeling is that, if you buy things on the second-hand market, you should go by how the garment looks and feels on you. If it looks good on you, and it makes you feel good when wearing it, just move on with your life. If the item turns out to be a fake somewhere down the road, consider it a piece of folk art. Counterfeiters are getting very good at this now and that can be a bit of fun in and of itself.
 
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BPL Esq

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My feeling is that, if you buy things on the second-hand market, you should go by how the garment looks and feels on you. If it looks good on you, and it makes you feel good when wearing it, just move on with your life. If the item turns out to be a fake somewhere down the road, consider it a piece of folk art. Counterfeiters are getting very good at this now and that can be a bit of fun in and of itself.

I agree to some extent (and it is often basically impossible to tell what's fake online unless it's pretty obvious to begin with), but I think this mantra is more appropriately applied when you decide to roll the dice on an anonymous maker, a maker you aren't familiar with, etc., rather than when you spend money in part based on knowledge of a maker and the quality/craftsmanship you can expect from that maker. I suppose if you get a counterfeit for free (or virtually free), then it doesn't matter much.

On the other hand, if you lay out hundreds or thousands of dollars for a garment you think is made by Kiton, for example, you are doing it at least in part because of what you know about Kiton. If what you get is not Kiton, not only did you fail to receive the benefit of the bargain you thought you were making (even worse if the quality is not substantially the same as the authentic product), but shrugging it off and continuing to make those sorts of purchases encourages counterfeiting. "Art" that involves fraud and IP infringement isn't my sort of art.

With that said, a lot of these threads pop up where the poster is just chasing a particular designer label for no practical reason and wants to know whether something like a hideous t-shirt is fake. They aren't buying the t-shirt because some master tailor at Versace or wherever spent hours putting it together by hand, so concerns about whether it's real or fake are fairly superficial.
 

dieworkwear

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I agree to some extent (and it is often basically impossible to tell what's fake online unless it's pretty obvious to begin with), but I think this mantra is more appropriately applied when you decide to roll the dice on an anonymous maker, a maker you aren't familiar with, etc., rather than when you spend money in part based on knowledge of a maker and the quality/craftsmanship you can expect from that maker. I suppose if you get a counterfeit for free (or virtually free), then it doesn't matter much.

On the other hand, if you lay out hundreds or thousands of dollars for a garment you think is made by Kiton, for example, you are doing it at least in part because of what you know about Kiton. If what you get is not Kiton, not only did you fail to receive the benefit of the bargain you thought you were making (even worse if the quality is not substantially the same as the authentic product), but shrugging it off and continuing to make those sorts of purchases encourages counterfeiting. "Art" that involves fraud and IP infringement isn't my sort of art.

With that said, a lot of these threads pop up where the poster is just chasing a particular designer label for no practical reason and wants to know whether something like a hideous t-shirt is fake. They aren't buying the t-shirt because some master tailor at Versace or wherever spent hours putting it together by hand, so concerns about whether it's real or fake are fairly superficial.

If you have the garment in front of you, then why not just inspect the supposed "craftsmanship" and "quality" of the garment, regardless of the label? Why infer quality from the label, and not directly from the garment itself?
 

BPL Esq

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If you have the garment in front of you, then why not just inspect the supposed "craftsmanship" and "quality" of the garment, regardless of the label? Why infer quality from the label, and not directly from the garment itself?

1) You didn't have the garment in front of you when you agreed to purchase it based on a representation of what it was. If the representation is false, you were lied to (perhaps indirectly).

2) A major reason for labels to exist in the first place is to give consumers a reasonable degree of confidence about the construction/quality/longevity/etc. of something they may not have the expertise to evaluate on their own, especially without ruining it by taking it apart. "Most enthusiasts are not experts on garment construction. Many can't even tell the difference between handsewing and machine sewing designed to look like handsewing." In many cases, it is a rational decision to pay more for a particular label and remove the guesswork because of what you know about that label's materials, construction process, style/fit, etc. Counterfeiters poison the well and make those sorts of decisions much harder for consumers, which is one reason why counterfeiting is punishable and why there are limitations on how products can be described in the marketplace.

Outside of the counterfeiting context, I of course agree that quality is in the garment itself rather than in the label. If you come across a beautiful cashmere coat with no tags indicating who made it, you'd be a fool to refuse to wear and enjoy it because it lacked a prestigious label. However, if you order a Kiton coat, you should get a Kiton coat. If you get a counterfeit that is nonetheless of outstanding quality, my point is not that the coat is somehow diminished in quality by the fact that isn't an authentic Kiton coat. The point is that you were still lied to, and not challenging the seller encourages counterfeiting.

Some people are OK with fakes as long as other people will be convinced by their counterfeit item (like the ubiquitous, fake LV monogram bags that women pick up in alleys for $100), and those people are buying for show. For those buying for quality or brand heritage or whatever, the label has a different purpose.
 

dieworkwear

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1) You didn't have the garment in front of you when you agreed to purchase it based on a representation of what it was. If the representation is false, you were lied to (perhaps indirectly).

2) A major reason for labels to exist in the first place is to give consumers a reasonable degree of confidence about the construction/quality/longevity/etc. of something they may not have the expertise to evaluate on their own, especially without ruining it by taking it apart. "Most enthusiasts are not experts on garment construction. Many can't even tell the difference between handsewing and machine sewing designed to look like handsewing." In many cases, it is a rational decision to pay more for a particular label and remove the guesswork because of what you know about that label's materials, construction process, style/fit, etc. Counterfeiters poison the well and make those sorts of decisions much harder for consumers, which is one reason why counterfeiting is punishable and why there are limitations on how products can be described in the marketplace.

Outside of the counterfeiting context, I of course agree that quality is in the garment itself rather than in the label. If you come across a beautiful cashmere coat with no tags indicating who made it, you'd be a fool to refuse to wear and enjoy it because it lacked a prestigious label. However, if you order a Kiton coat, you should get a Kiton coat. If you get a counterfeit that is nonetheless of outstanding quality, my point is not that the coat is somehow diminished in quality by the fact that isn't an authentic Kiton coat. The point is that you were still lied to, and not challenging the seller encourages counterfeiting.

Some people are OK with fakes as long as other people will be convinced by their counterfeit item (like the ubiquitous, fake LV monogram bags that women pick up in alleys for $100), and those people are buying for show. For those buying for quality or brand heritage or whatever, the label has a different purpose.

Personally think people should pay more attention to tangible measures in a garment, such as the silhouette, comfort, and fit, rather than pay attention to dimensions about quality they know little about. To the degree that quality means something, it should show up in these tangible ways, such as the shaping in the chest.

I'm personally not bothered by wearing fake items. I think it would just make for a funny story. But if someone is concerned about these issues, they should not shop second hand, as most people simply can't tell the difference nowadays.
 
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efta

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With regards to the button question, I have several overcoats where the button thread is sewn through the pocket. If you were to sew it through just the outer fabric, I'd imagine that it would be a much, much bigger fail point.
 

BPL Esq

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Personally think people should pay more attention to tangible measures in a garment, such as the silhouette, comfort, and fit, rather than pay attention to dimensions about quality they know little about. To the degree that quality means something, it should show up in these tangible ways, such as the shaping in the chest.

I'm personally not bothered by wearing fake items. I think it would just make for a funny story. But if someone is concerned about these issues, they should not shop second hand, as most people simply can't tell the difference nowadays.

Agreed, generally. If you are going to shop second hand, shop for something you know really well already and can identify, or shop for brands that are less likely to be faked. I would be very, very cautious about buying Hermes, Armani, D&G, Versace, Louis Vuitton, Louboutin, etc., via eBay due to the enormous number of fakes. On the other hand, I think basically nobody is selling fake jackets from Paul Stuart, Oxxford, etc. Most people have no idea what Loro Piana is, so that's probably relatively safe as well. The watch market is terrifying these days though, as you alluded to.
 

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