No one is going to be able to give you enough proof over the internet. Order them, try them, send back if you aren’t convinced. Very little risk in returning.not trying to bash, I just like being a realist, and only spending money if its something I could not get a comparable alternative for. I do like the carbons and am considering them actually. Maybe, I should change my tone, but I just want to get an objective perspective about the options. I should have illustrated my point a different manner, and just said that I don't like raws, and prefer the lazy route and getting prewashes. However, the carbons look good, anywhere I can find pics outside the JE site? I've tried formulating an educated opinion by visiting every store around me that carries JE, but they always have terrible buys. I went to nordstrom and it was only the kane jeans, lol.