Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread

[nutcracker]



Why does the front have to bend up like this?

Dress shoes are designed with a slight curvature upwards toward the toe (toe spring). The curve looks more prominent on wooden lasts and lasted shoetrees (and also because they don`t have the heel lift to prop it up from the back). Sorry for my lousy description but I hope you get the point.

Wooden lasts by Yuki Shirahama Bottier.

 

[nutcracker]

An irresistibly charming pair of Handsewn Baby Shoes by Gentille 79 (Endou Koji)

Not exactly functional (not intended to), but nevertheless an excellent baby gift!

If you recall from my earlier post, Endou-san is a former pupil of M. Anthony Delos. He currently runs his own bespoke operation in Tokyo.

Endou san and M.Delos (on his recent visit to Tokyo)

gentile79 HP
Blog entry

 

[chogall]

:0
Pupil of Delos. Very interesting. So many interesting makers in Japan, so little money and time.

 

[barky]

:0
Pupil of Delos. Very interesting. So many interesting makers in Japan, so little money and time.

How true. However most of the MTOs are priced very keenly for the level of craftmanship offered. Makes going to Japan potentially very dangerous for me now.

 

[add911_11]

Hello Nutcracker, I have a question for you....

It seems Japan has the highest rate of young shoe makers around the Asia region. May I ask how is the shoe market in Japan like? Do 'modest' a.k.a average Joe supports the local handmade shoe market? I mean the bespoke stuff and not the High end Japanese or Western RTW shoes one can buy in Superstore.

In relation to my own experience, I find bespoke shoe market in Europe is generally a very tough place, there is only a small amount of people into bespoke shoes. Some of my friends, who are trained under bespoke big names struggle to survive in freelance bespoke shoe making and turn to shoe enterprise ( e.g. kurt geiger )

Do young, aspiration Japanese shoe maker who charges very modest pricing (e.g. under £2000 for fully bespoke) manages to sustain their business?

 

[nutcracker]



Hello Nutcracker, I have a question for you....

It seems Japan has the highest rate of young shoe makers around the Asia region. May I ask how is the shoe market in Japan like? Do 'modest' a.k.a average Joe supports the local handmade shoe market? I mean the bespoke stuff and not the High end Japanese or Western RTW shoes one can buy in Superstore.

In relation to my own experience, I find bespoke shoe market in Europe is generally a very tough place, there is only a small amount of people into bespoke shoes. Some of my friends, who are trained under bespoke big names struggle to survive in freelance bespoke shoe making and turn to shoe enterprise ( e.g. kurt geiger )

Do young, aspiration Japanese shoe maker who charges very modest pricing (e.g. under £2000 for fully bespoke) manages to sustain their business?

While I don`t think an everage Joe (or Kimura san) can afford a ¥400K Yohei Fukuda, those who can afford high end imported shoes (¥150K Edward Green) have the option to try entry-level bespokes from local makers. I think younger shoemakers who charge (¥150K~¥200K yen) have a much larger audience to reach, and in a way trying to take a piece of the pie from the high-end RTW shoe market. A few lucky ones get some kind of a big break (being featured on MEN`S EX, or getting featured on an online forum

That being said, I have heard the current bespoke market is pretty tough as a whole. Quite a lot of the shoemakers mentioned in this thread do some kind of side business, namely shoemaking schools or shoe repair shops. Shoemaking itself is probably not enough to sustain the business, let a lone a family. Shoemakers on top of the pyramid do seem to enjoy a steady flow of orders (Fukuda, Clematis, Marquess etc.... have 1 year plus wait).

While I`ve been told by a few makers that the market has already passed its peak, there seems to be no shortage of newcomers popping up here and there. I`ve heard that there are several more Japanese apprentices of Robert Ugolini who`s planning for a debut not too far in future.

 

[add911_11]



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

While I don`t think an everage Joe (or Kimura san) can afford a ¥400K Yohei Fukuda, those who can afford high end imported shoes (¥150K Edward Green) have the option to try entry-level bespokes from local makers. I think younger shoemakers who charge (¥150K~¥200K yen) have a much larger audience to reach, and in a way trying to take a piece of the pie from the high-end RTW shoe market. A few lucky ones get some kind of a big break (being featured on MEN`S EX, or getting featured on an online forum

That being said, I have heard the current bespoke market is pretty tough as a whole. Quite a lot of the shoemakers mentioned in this thread do some kind of side business, namely shoemaking schools or shoe repair shops. Shoemaking itself is probably not enough to sustain the business, let a lone a family. Shoemakers on top of the pyramid do seem to enjoy a steady flow of orders (Fukuda, Clematis, Marquess etc.... have 1 year plus wait).

While I`ve been told by a few makers that the market has already passed its peak, there seems to be no shortage of newcomers popping up here and there. I`ve heard that there are several more Japanese apprentices of Robert Ugolini who`s planning for a debut not too far in future.

I think the affordability is an imprecise concept. However, do you think wearing 'nice' shoes is part of the Japanese culture? In the board perspective, do you think the Japanese public are likely to spend a larger proportion of their income/investment on clothes and shoes then other parts of Asia and Europe?

What do you think? Thanks for the insight, I am interested in high quality goods, but even more interested in the people buying these goods.

 

[Pelotonia]

In my limited observations on the first two question, the answer is a firm No, on average.
To illustrate w/ example - a collegue of mine with a monthly income w/o bonuses or any add ons of approx 6,000 USD (meaning above the medium national income) have not spend a yen in good 5-6 years on shoes or clothes. My boss as well. That colleague has a family w/ 3 kids trying to spend a 1/4 of their income a month, but he admits to spending most months 1/3, which he considers a failure. Everything else is saved "because the future is uncertain". Kids do not experience anything like water parks or zoos, no travel abroad, no holidays, groceries bought at the cheapest possible place. Majority of families have a system where the wife distributes the family income (most of the times her husband's income). They have grown up in an environment where their mothers saved almost everything and they do the same.

I have a colleague from the uni who went into i-banking. I have never seen him wearing anything other than Aoyama or Aoki suits (200/300 USD, I think, never owned one but almost 100% acryl or polyester) despite being a MD(it's true though he has a thing for cars and spends a lot on them). On the other hand one of my suprrvisors is US-educated (Chicago U, Business Scool) and he is a great dresser and always wears amazing clothes and shoes.
Since February we have started doing business w/ someone from Tochigi. While he is a filthy rich, I have seen him wearing only one pair of shoes(changes suits and shirts though)
I have been scolded for wearing non-black suit (navy or grey) for specific very important meetings. In my opinion and experience, for many being in a black suit, white shirt and black shoes is enough. Quality,fit, material, seasonality do not matter.

 

[add911_11]

Thanks for your personal experience.

Still, Japan has the most diverse (arguably highest quality) clothing culture in Asia, at the very least I believe most people care how they look. It seems they like to present themselves in the best way they can, at all times.

Is the above correct in Japan?

 

[Fang66]



In my limited observations on the first two question, the answer is a firm No, on average.
To illustrate w/ example - a collegue of mine with a monthly income w/o bonuses or any add ons of approx 6,000 USD (meaning above the medium national income) have not spend a yen in good 5-6 years on shoes or clothes. My boss as well. That colleague has a family w/ 3 kids trying to spend a 1/4 of their income a month, but he admits to spending most months 1/3, which he considers a failure. Everything else is saved "because the future is uncertain". Kids do not experience anything like water parks or zoos, no travel abroad, no holidays, groceries bought at the cheapest possible place. Majority of families have a system where the wife distributes the family income (most of the times her husband's income). They have grown up in an environment where their mothers saved almost everything and they do the same.

I have a colleague from the uni who went into i-banking. I have never seen him wearing anything other than Aoyama or Aoki suits (200/300 USD, I think, never owned one but almost 100% acryl or polyester) despite being a MD(it's true though he has a thing for cars and spends a lot on them). On the other hand one of my suprrvisors is US-educated (Chicago U, Business Scool) and he is a great dresser and always wears amazing clothes and shoes.
Since February we have started doing business w/ someone from Tochigi. While he is a filthy rich, I have seen him wearing only one pair of shoes(changes suits and shirts though)
I have been scolded for wearing non-black suit (navy or grey) for specific very important meetings. In my opinion and experience, for many being in a black suit, white shirt and black shoes is enough. Quality,fit, material, seasonality do not matter.

Have to say that in my experience there are some counter-factuals in this post. Firstly a 200 USD suit from a typical Japanese suit store will almost certainly be pure wool (******, but pure wool). The black suit thing just means you are low man on the totem pole, but even in the biggest and most traditionally Japanese companies (I've worked/still work at many of them) even freshers don't have to wear a black suit to meetings.

I am acquainted with Japanese people from pretty much every socio-economic group (excluding homeless people) From Blue collar workers to a VP in one of the worlds largest companies. My best friend has never had a job because he is independently wealthy (old money). Most middle class people I know travel overseas at least once every 2 or three years, middle/upper management types every year. My rich friend a few times a year. Only the poorest people I know who have kids and a tight budget bargain shop for groceries. Middle class people (the majority of Japanese) with kids spend a **** load of money on activities for their kids, swimming lessons, English lessons, private baseball/golf/soccer coaching, going to Disney Land Fujikyu Highland etc.

One point that I totally agree with though is about shoes, I only know one guy who wears nice shoes but even he was not aware of the majority of Japanese makers in this thread, he prefers English/American(loves Aldens)/Italian . The guy I know who is a big wig in a daibutsu wears bespoke suits, an Audemars Piguet watch, drives a nice Mercedes, and wears rubber soled shoes that look like they come from ABC Mart.

 

[Fang66]



Thanks for your personal experience.

Still, Japan has the most diverse (arguably highest quality) clothing culture in Asia, at the very least I believe most people care how they look. It seems they like to present themselves in the best way they can, at all times.

Is the above correct in Japan?

I think this is true to a point. Many Japanese people (not unique to Japan) wouldn't know a quality suit/pair of shoes if it hit them over the head, they do know that some brands are expensive "so they must be good", i.e. they are brand whores.

 

[add911_11]

This comes the next bit. Do you think they are likely to support their local brands?

 

[Fang66]



This comes the next bit. Do you think they are likely to support their local brands?

Overseas brands have attract a premium no matter the quality.

 

[nutcracker]



I think the affordability is an imprecise concept. However, do you think wearing 'nice' shoes is part of the Japanese culture? In the board perspective, do you think the Japanese public are likely to spend a larger proportion of their income/investment on clothes and shoes then other parts of Asia and Europe?

What do you think? Thanks for the insight, I am interested in high quality goods, but even more interested in the people buying these goods.

Yes, style-conscious men are willing to invest in nice shoes, but they probably spend equally or more on clothes too.
Believe it or not, Japan is home to a whole lot of fine tailors too (and quite a few having trained in major English or Italian houses)

While I dont think the Japanese are the largest consumers of luxury goods (China? USA?), there definitely is a sizeable population of men who do appreciate the finer things in life and who do try to cultivate good taste, and an industry (stores and publications) that provides to such needs and lifestyle. In terms of the sheer number of classic menswear stores and publications (books and magazines), I think Japan trumps anywhere else in the world.

Not exactly fashion, but having lived in Taiwan and visited HK and China, I can swear the Chinese are willing to invest more in fine watches and cars than the Japanese )

 

[Pelotonia]

Let me explain further. The person who asked me why I am not in black suit was a Japanese female. Those are, if you have had any contact with them, good at micromanaging and behaving according to stereotypes - e.g. important meeting=black suit. All people regardless of their rank were dressed in black on those occasions (you could guess the profession as well). Not to mention the fact, that there whole branches in the service industries where you could dress in black or black w/ stripes, no other choices. On Aoki suit, check their website 65,000 suit is 50% polyester(I know the price I wrote about since he boasted about the price and shop he purchased it). But there are some changes as you say in regards to colors and styles but to a limited number of industries and very slow.
.
Japanese, I agree, spend on their children's education and activities. On average though - Tokyo is not Japan and unfortuntaley not the average Japanese family lives there. Farther from Tokyo, lesser money would be spent. Average income is 4,5 ml. yen per household, deduct Tokyo and do the math and you would be surprised that there many people after 99 yen bananas or 33 yen cucumbers.

My point, howevere, w/ few examples from my vicinity was to illustrate is that on average people here would rather save than spend, especially on clothes or shoes. However, I know shopoholics as well, particular one lady who maxes out her credit card. That's why one of my first questions in this thread was to ask - who in Japan wears those shoes and where I could meet them, to which nutcracker responded that I need to go to a shopping mall on a weekend. But since the population is so big, it's a number games so pretty sure there a great number of people doing well off shoemaking.