Is this really Norvegese construction?

[dopey]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Once, I used a shoemaker who did not have email. I had to email a friend of his, who would then print out the message and bring it to his shop.

My first pair of bespoke shoes were ordered in Seville. The problem wasn't so much technology as communication. After about twenty five minutes of fruitless gesticulation, we gave up. Then the shoemaker called his brother the saddlemaker. We had a short conversation, I handed the phone back to the shoe guy, they spoke for a bit and we were off to the races.

About two years ago, I e-mailed them to see if they had any record of me. They did. I dropped the order as the shoes wouldn't work with my orthotics. I have since figure out how to modify my shoes myself and my original pair was an easy fix.

I have just reminded myself to reorder. Thanks, I think.

 

[bengal-stripe]

Originally Posted by Roger

So Norvegese doesn't have a reverse welt after all. That would be Norwegian-welted, I suppose, that does have the reverse welt.

There is ‘Norwegian construction’ (Norvegese) and there is a ‘Norwegian welt’. The Norwegian welt is placed on the outside, L-shaped and carries two rows of stitching: one connects the welt to the shoe itself and the other one connects the welt to the sole. Both rows are at right angle to each other. ‘Norwegian welt’ is the same as Austrian ‘Goiserer’, hence ‘Tirolese’ in Italian.

Years ago, we discussed it at great length in the London Lounge with members ‘Giona Granata’ and ‘T4phage’ particular active in this field.
http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/...ght=bentivegna

I don’t know if non-LL-member can get access, so I’m posting GG’s conclusions here. I believe this is the ultimate answer in these various Italian construction methods. T4phage, who has great knowledge in this particular area might want to chip in.

Dear Sirs,

I recently went back to my shoemaker in Milano, Mr. Bestetti, to place a new order, for a winter pair of shoes; yes I like to anticipate ...
be ready for cold times!

I ordered a pair of Derbies, in shell cordovan leather, with a double sole. Bestetti proposed to make them in Bentivegna construction, I agreed, and this lead to a discussion of this particular construction style, together with his sister Norvegese (Norwegian).

Out of my curiosity I asked Bestetti to explain these models:

1) Norwegian/Norvogese:

for an Italian shoemaker is the same thing, as Norvegese is merely the translation in Italian of "Norwegian".
This does not have a welt, can have a feather or not, and 3 main
stitching: upper to insole (visible), upper to sole (visible), insole to midsole (invisible) and it can have (or haven't) braided stitching.

2) Tirolese

this is actually a variation of the Norwegian; main difference is that is welted. The welt being placed outside in an "L" form against the sole and upper. There is 2 visible stitches: the welt to the upper and insole, and then the welt to the sole.

3) Bentivegna

Bentivegana is similar to Tirolese, stitched with welt ('L" form like
above) outside. The welt is stitched to upper and insole, and the welt then is stitched to the sole; so we have 2 visible stitching; and at the heel, the stitching from welt to sole is underneath, like normal goodyear.

This one is interesting, because it's a typical Milanese style; in fact Mr. Bentivegna was a well-known shoemaker in Milano some time ago. It seems that there was an interesting Milanese School in shoemaking, and the three major components were: Alfieri, Mario Orio and Bentivegna.

Alfieri was the exponent of the "old school"; Mario Orio was the one who made the most elegant shoes, well reknown between the rich people of the world, and Bentivegna was the most creative of the group.
Lattanzi and Santoni have borrowed heavily from these shoemakers and have helped popularize the "Bentivegna" construction.

Hope this is of help.

Giona Granata.

PS
Thanks to Jan - T4Phage in helping writing, editing and understanding these particular styles.

Well, as all the fans of Rose Nylund (nÃ

e Lindstrom) from the ‘Golden Girls will know, things Norwegian are never easy:
“We in St Olaf’s used to………….”

 

[sully]

I think the 'Norvegese' could be refering to the shoe style rather than the construction.This style is sometimes known as a norwegian slipper so this could be the reason.
As said earlier the blake stitch on the insole is a giveaway to the construction. A false welt can be made with a blake stitch and then the sole stitched to this , not as strong as a goodyear welt but can keep making costs down.
I actually like the shoe. It's slightly chunky from a sole point of view which could affect keeping the shoe on the foot comfortably but if the price is right for you
why not.

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Some things are not so important to define perfectly. This is one of them. Buy shoes you like, and don't rely on people who have likely never spoken to a shoemaker in Italy who does the various constructions.

+1, I would be surprised if there is a stringent "nomenclatura" in Bella Italia.

Btw, who needs jcusey, when "we" can have Giona Granata

 

[RIDER]

Where the hell are Jcusey and Rider when they're needed?

Traveling


Actually, Bengal, as usual, has it correct......except the original shoe posted is Blake/Rapid, neither welted or Blake, as mentioned.

The auction poster could have gotten confused by the typical American description of the pattern, as well....Alden has used 'Norwegian' to describe that very nice split-toe they have had in the line forever, so some here think the style dictates the term.

There are a myriad of terms for this work in Italy....each factory can call it whatever they like, and most of this work is done by outside workers....at least by the northern manufacturers. There are so many variations of this work that it would be almost impossible to give each one a term....and it's not an everyday production for most, so the need is not so much there to worry with it. Since Branchini went away, I suppose the only factory that's left that markets this is Lattanzi in any kind of production.

Anyway, you can do it single stitch (most Italians will call this one Norvegese), 3 stitch (treccia), 2 seperate single stitches (Tirolese) with a welt...either squared or rounded, and many now also do this decoratively; not tied into the insole. You can also do it where the stitch is hidden inside like in Goodyear, or where the stitch is visible inside and ties into the insole from the top...all variations of a theme.

Buy it as you see it -

 

[kolecho]

I don't know about you guys, but I need some diagrams and actual shoe pictures to understand all this

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by kolecho

I don't know about you guys, but I need some diagrams and actual shoe pictures to understand all this

Search the london lounge photojournal. There is a folder that contains several diagrams on this subject. I don't recall the name of the folder, but it might be under bespoke shoes.

 

[edmorel]

BTW, Kiton is now doing a Norvegese shoe. Clunky and ugly as sin. They are supposed to have a more elegant model coming for the fall. Oh, and price is only $11,000.

 

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by edmorel

BTW, Kiton is now doing a Norvegese shoe. Clunky and ugly as sin. They are supposed to have a more elegant model coming for the fall. Oh, and price is only $11,000.

Cheap at twice the price!