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Is SF full of c***

Mr Tickle

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My very fashion-focused friend (a trend analyst at a big name high street fashion label) says that the coda of style/ heritage-oriented clothes enthusiasts - that "style is timeless" is a load of rubbish, and that, in today's world, the classic menswear lover is really just a subculture with its own dress code - like mod, or punk, or whatever. That in reality he is just as driven by the tides of trend and fads as, for example, streetwear, or haute-couture fans. As examples she pointed to the fact that various items of clothing such as tweed suits, work wear boots, flannel shirts, blazers etc, ebb and wane in popularity , as well as different cuts, fits and materials becoming regarded as "always stylish" over time.
She also pointed out that most "style icons" who are held up by the classic menswear crowd as paragons of permanent style - Sinatra, McQueen, Kennedy, Connery - were in fact highly fashion-conscious and in step with their times, and that anyone who went around dressing exactly as they did, today, would look incongruous and probably ridiculous.
Classic menswear enthusiasts are fetishists to an even greater degree than other fashion subcultures, she opined. Driven by a sensual reaction to cloths, folds and stitching that, rather than being an innate harmony with some ethereal principle of fundamental taste and style, is in fact entirely subjective and moulded by the senser's tastes, preferences, cultural background etc.
Ok she didn't actually say it in those words. Those are just kind of my interpretation after thinking for a while about a few throwaway comments she made, when I said something like "style never goes out of fashion" in a vaguely ironic context.
But I wondered if she had said that , whether anyone here would have put up a defence, for the "classic menswear enthusiasts" (aka SF regular) being in any way above, or more than, the rest of the fashion world.
 

Crispyj

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Yes, SF regulars are the unknown gods of the fashion world. Everything your friend said is false.

I totally do not:

  • get sexually aroused looking at 4k pictures of my tailor's hand padded lapel stitches.
  • beat off at other SF member's bespoke projects.
  • am gay for my tailors.
  • reach ecstasy whenever a vintage fabric is draped over my shoulders.
  • have a secret hidden Appreciation folder in my computer full of half naked (half finished) bespoke jackets that I am afraid of my mom finding out.
 

Panama

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Obviously doesn't know what she is talking about. Sean Connery a style icon? He's expressed a preference for track suit bottoms and not spending any money on clothing. He wasn't in step, his costume designer/wardrobe supervisor/Terence Young was.

sean-connery-marche-dans-rue-avec-une-canne-new-york-septembre-2017.jpg
 

Phileas Fogg

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Human beings are tribal. We coalesce around shared interests and characteristics. We form certain viewpoints and dogmas and use those as the blueprint by which we construct our realities and our world. In that sense, it makes sense that what we view as “classic” remains unchanging though it certainly changes.

We should dress as we feel comfortable doing so, and if looking back at past examples gives us cues then so be it. Can it become distorted and fetishized? Sure.

I do think it’s funny that we conflate movie characters with the actors who portrayed them.
 

Stylewords

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My very fashion-focused friend (a trend analyst at a big name high street fashion label) says that the coda of style/ heritage-oriented clothes enthusiasts - that "style is timeless" is a load of rubbish, and that, in today's world, the classic menswear lover is really just a subculture with its own dress code - like mod, or punk, or whatever. That in reality he is just as driven by the tides of trend and fads as, for example, streetwear, or haute-couture fans. As examples she pointed to the fact that various items of clothing such as tweed suits, work wear boots, flannel shirts, blazers etc, ebb and wane in popularity , as well as different cuts, fits and materials becoming regarded as "always stylish" over time.
She also pointed out that most "style icons" who are held up by the classic menswear crowd as paragons of permanent style - Sinatra, McQueen, Kennedy, Connery - were in fact highly fashion-conscious and in step with their times, and that anyone who went around dressing exactly as they did, today, would look incongruous and probably ridiculous.
Classic menswear enthusiasts are fetishists to an even greater degree than other fashion subcultures, she opined. Driven by a sensual reaction to cloths, folds and stitching that, rather than being an innate harmony with some ethereal principle of fundamental taste and style, is in fact entirely subjective and moulded by the senser's tastes, preferences, cultural background etc.
Ok she didn't actually say it in those words. Those are just kind of my interpretation after thinking for a while about a few throwaway comments she made, when I said something like "style never goes out of fashion" in a vaguely ironic context.
But I wondered if she had said that , whether anyone here would have put up a defence, for the "classic menswear enthusiasts" (aka SF regular) being in any way above, or more than, the rest of the fashion world.
That's what you get when you ask a woman about menswear.
 

GeneralEmployer

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Obviously doesn't know what she is talking about. Sean Connery a style icon? He's expressed a preference for track suit bottoms and not spending any money on clothing. He wasn't in step, his costume designer/wardrobe supervisor/Terence Young was.

View attachment 1403162

For an 89 year old man, Connery doesn't look too bad.
 

maxalex

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Clearly even "traditional" menswear reacts to trends, or men would still be wearing knee britches, stockings and lace blouses. But these are best thought of as narrative arcs, not annual cycles. Men who care about classic style don't remake their wardrobe every year. They will recognize the general trend toward more casual clothing without wearing beachwear in the city, and even on the beach will not degrade themselves in cargo shorts, which seem designed to make men look roughly as fit as Popeye before eating spinach. (Remind me why we need pockets on our knees?)

A parallel characteristic of menswear "style" as opposed to "fashion" is a respect for quality clothing, as often as possible handmade. Such clothing is expensive, but the money supports the individual craftsman's work and not the marketing division of a "luxury brand," the less of which I understand the better.

The expense of quality clothing incentivizes even wealthy people to take care of their clothes, and wear them for years if not decades. It also encourages the wearer to maintain his ideal weight, and tangentially promotes the conservation of materials and energy that are wasted on so-called fast fashion.

There could well be some "fetishism" associated with menswear style--you could say the same about people who collect sports cars, or wine. But that's just another word for passion. In the absence of disrespect (a well-mannered person does not criticize the wearer of cargo shorts to his face), one strains to see the malignancy.
 

paulraphael

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In a couple of senses she's right. The classic menswear people are a tribe like any other. And there's no such thing as permanent style. Witness that no one here wears togas. However, I think the "classic" disposition reflects people who respect a longer timeline—styles that stay mostly intact for decades rather than a season or two.

In some cases this might just mean one decade. In other cases it could be more than a lifetime.

Whether or not craft fetishization can fall under the umbrella of "fashion" is an interesting question ... but not one I have the historical knowledge to answer.
 

JackEst3

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I think others, particularly makalex, wrote well on this, but I would like to share a few of my thoughts as well.

It really boils down to is this:
Clothing is for most people a purely practical thing, worn to be protected from elements and to a certain extent for modesty. For some people, purely practical things become interests and interests become hobbies. So instead of just using things, people read about them, collect them, buy more of them than is absolutely necessary and discuss them, for example on Styleforum.
For clothing, this can more narrowly mean formal ("classic") menswear, latest fashion, vintage, national dress, etc. This is not exclusive to clothing: some wear watches to tell time, some collect them, restore them, write about them and spend copious amounts of money on them.

Can this seem weird to outsiders? Yes, but I don't see how this is exclusive or at least more prevalent on Styleforum of the classic menswear community. In the same way that I couldn't give less of a damn about the inner workings of a racing car, a car enthusiast would think that I (and many others here) am weird (or even a fetishist) for obsessing over the shoulder construction of a sport coat, the collar interlining of a shirt or welting on a shoe.

What about toxicity and elitism? Hobbies can easily become passions and people who are passionate about something often feel a sense of superiority and can get defensive when someone questions their passion. Sometimes this is expressed rudely and offensively. In that sense, no community can probably be statistically proven to be more toxic and elitist than others.

For some, classic or formal menswear can carry connotations of conservatism, anti-modernity and classic masculinity, which can lead to the problems you've described, but I don't think they're anything more than a vocal minority within the community.

So what your friend has discovered is that sometimes people are passionate about something and sometimes they are rude when defending their passion.

Is there "timeless" style? No, but this doesn't mean one can't aim to dress as timelessly as possible. Certainly there are some items of clothing that don't look out of place now, wouldn't have looked out of place 20 years ago and won't look out of place 20 years in the future. Yes, they might look anachronistic 120 years into the future or past, but we're not talking about such timescales. Certain principles of clothing are timeless, however, such as:
Clothing should always fit well
If there's a dress code, it's polite to observe it
Clothing should flatter your body type and make you look better
(One of the reasons the suit has survived for over 100 years is that it makes almost any man look taller, leaner and stronger)

As others have mentioned, the focus on longevity and quality is also something that the "classic menswear" movement should be lauded for. Focus on quality construction, good materials and craftsmanship is not only ecologically friendly, but also economical for the consumer. These principles can be applied with any clothing, but they are particularly prevalent in classic menswear, because whilst not strictly timeless, it reacts to trends and fashions slower and more subtly.

Which brings me to the perspective of your friend as someone who is both personally and professionally interested in fashion. I believe we are seeing a clash of philosophies here: the classic menswear crowd, whilst acknowledging the changing norms of dress (much though we might want to wear frock coats), hardly care about trends. (although we are certainly influenced by them, the prevalence of narrow lapels and tiny shirt collars on shop racks causing agony for many iGents) I, for one, dress for two purposes:
1) Look put together for the situation and send the kind of signals I want to send to the kind of people I want to send them to
2) Dress for myself, including my body type as well as my personality

If something looks flattering on me now, I don't care that it was last in fashion five years ago. (All that means is that slightly more people wore it then than at some other time, after all)
(Within the limits of social reasonableness, of course. A toga might look excellent on me, but alas...) Not to mention the practical and economical costs of revamping a wardrobe every fashion season which others have also mentioned.

So really, the conclusion is:
1) Are people here c****? Some probably are, but not substantially more than any other community.
2) Is there "timeless" or "classic" style? No, but certain principles followed by the classic menswear movement are timeless.

So, these are my thoughts. This turned out longer than I expected.
 

Clintonjl

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Would agree with pretty well everyone here. I am a newer addition to Style forum, however I would like to chime in and say that this friend of yours relies on fashion for her career.

There's a definite dichotomy going on here as, if everyone thought like the people from Style forum, we would have a lot of well dressed, broke gentlemen, and no need for fashion.

I think it is a little jouvanile to discount the more classic style of menswear and its enthusiasts in one ignorant swoop like that. Many here are opposed to fashion and would bash it all the same, but there is a certain gentleman-like attitude and lifestyle that goes along with the philosophies of dressing better.

Anyways, getting carried away. I think fashion has its place, and so does classic menswear. I'm not going to wear some paisley patterned Gucci suit to a job interview, but nor am I going to wear a tuxedo. You should dress for the occasion you are partaking in.

Hope this defends us a little bit!
 
Last edited:

paulraphael

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I think fast fashion has its place, and so does classic menswear.

Be careful about conflating "fast fashion" with fashion. They're not the same thing. The fast fashion world has a parasitic relationship with the fashion world.
 

Clintonjl

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Be careful about conflating "fast fashion" with fashion. They're not the same thing. The fast fashion world has a parasitic relationship with the fashion world.

My apologies. I just mean fashion, not fast fashion. Thank you.
 

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