Is casualness an appropriate description of the demise of suits, ties and jackets?

[Andy57]

"Peacocking behavior such as wearing a double-breasted suit to a Cupertino or Menlo Park workplace goes against such principles I'm afraid, not to mention some people's notion of social graces"

Perhaps I shouldn't presume, but SF stalwart, Andy57 might differ with you. Nor
would I characterize his elegant taste as "Peacocking behavior".

Yep, I do differ. What I choose to wear to work is of no concern of anyone's. In fact, I regard myself as something of a rebel, a non-conformist. Because that's what it is really about, I think. People think that they are bucking some norm by not wearing a tie, or by wearing sweat pants or whatever. They're not. Such people are conforming to their peer-group's own, rather rigid, dress code.

Why then should anyone care about what Joe Khaki-pants from the office thinks of his necktie?

I don't.

Good for you if they're not over for you.

But they're over in the sense that 99 per cent of environments/situations where up until 10 years ago a tie would have been expected, they're not expected anymore.

Expected by whom? Does it actually matter? This is a depressingly narrow view of the world. The pressure to fit in and not stand out must be crushing. I'm sorry.

 

[NORE]

I think OP meant, laziness. Which is precisely why I didn't read any post after his.

 

[il_colonnello]

People think that they are bucking some norm by not wearing a tie, or by wearing sweat pants or whatever.

That isn't why ties have fallen out of favor. People have stopped wearing them because they are - were - unnecessary, and were perceived by many as uncomfortable on top of that.

Clothing is an aspect of an era's culture. Different eras and changes in zeitgeist bring changes in how people dress, same as with architecture, music, painting etc. Rigidly clinging to the codes of the previous era doesn't make you a rebel. Best case it makes you come off as an excentric and a dying breed, worst case as a reactionary.

Expected by whom? Does it actually matter?

It doesn't, which is exactly why people have stopped wearing them.

 

[Andy57]

Rigidly clinging to the codes of the previous era doesn't make you a rebel. Best case it makes you come off as an excentric and a dying breed, worst case as a reactionary.

Oh, no! I'm crushed.

 

[DorianGreen]

Good for you if they're not over for you.

But they're over in the sense that 99 per cent of environments/situations where up until 10 years ago a tie would have been expected, they're not expected anymore. Not only that, it's getting to the point where showing up with one looks odd and suspicious, like trying hard to stand out from the crowd for the wrong reason. There may be some regional differences but in Europe nowadays in most industries if you show up for a job interview in a three-piece pinstripe suit with tie, you're not improving your chances compared to the next guy who's in slacks and a polo shirt. Worst case, you look like a try-hard.

Not saying I welcome that development. People are dressing worse than ever before imo. But it is what it is and the tiny fraction of Gen Zs who may still be discovering bespoke suits and tailored clothing won't change that it won't be long before ties have become the new bow ties: an oddity.

I agree, people dress worse than ever these days, but this isn't irreversible and each of us can give his small contribution for improving the situation.

And do you dress according to what you're expected to do? Sorry, this is the intrisic negation of style and personal expression. With this mindset it wouln't surprise me to see everybody wearing sweatpants soon.

 

[NORE]

I agree, people dress worse than ever these days, but this isn't irreversible and each of us can give his small contribution for improving the situation.

And do you dress according to what you're expected to do? Sorry, this is the intrisic negation of style and personal expression. With this mindset it wouln't surprise me to see everybody wearing sweatpants soon.

Excuse me, sir. They are called "easy trousers".

 

[TomTom]

Good for you if they're not over for you.

But they're over in the sense that 99 per cent of environments/situations where up until 10 years ago a tie would have been expected, they're not expected anymore. Not only that, it's getting to the point where showing up with one looks odd and suspicious, like trying hard to stand out from the crowd for the wrong reason. There may be some regional differences but in Europe nowadays in most industries if you show up for a job interview in a three-piece pinstripe suit with tie, you're not improving your chances compared to the next guy who's in slacks and a polo shirt. Worst case, you look like a try-hard.

Not saying I welcome that development. People are dressing worse than ever before imo. But it is what it is and the tiny fraction of Gen Zs who may still be discovering bespoke suits and tailored clothing won't change that it won't be long before ties have become the new bow ties: an oddity.

If somebody showed up to an interview in a polo shirt and slacks , he would be sent home asap by me the interviewer . Unless you are applying for a job in a garage or MacDonalds, that is not an appropriate attire.

 

[JBielan]

Good for you if they're not over for you.

But they're over in the sense that 99 per cent of environments/situations where up until 10 years ago a tie would have been expected, they're not expected anymore. Not only that, it's getting to the point where showing up with one looks odd and suspicious, like trying hard to stand out from the crowd for the wrong reason. There may be some regional differences but in Europe nowadays in most industries if you show up for a job interview in a three-piece pinstripe suit with tie, you're not improving your chances compared to the next guy who's in slacks and a polo shirt. Worst case, you look like a try-hard.

Not saying I welcome that development. People are dressing worse than ever before imo. But it is what it is and the tiny fraction of Gen Zs who may still be discovering bespoke suits and tailored clothing won't change that it won't be long before ties have become the new bow ties: an oddity.

I’m not trying to pick on your comment, but this conversation spans many thoughts, and as "the tiny fraction of gen Z", I latch onto your ending and just want to add to the overall conversation. My wife is a handweaver, and her passion for fiber arts inspired my interest in menswear. I’m drawn to ties because what I enjoy most about menswear isn’t the silhouette but the fabric—a perspective shaped by my wife. Everyday wear limits bold shirting or coating, but ties allow for self-expression when a somber uniform is required.

As you note, the tie is in decline. Narratives about menswear—such as being uncomfortable, expensive, anachronistic, or tied to outdated norms—have affected tailored menswear broadly, but ties especially. Even among fans of classic tailoring, a tie is no longer a given.

Today, shirts seem to be the dominant expressive piece, as fewer people wear blazers or suits and the shirt takes focus. Unless obligated by occasion, I get more use out of sport coats in the fall and spring, when they function as outerwear rather than just aesthetics or as a gesture. I enjoy suits and blazers, but if wearing one to a client meeting will be odd, I focus elsewhere.

I believe being well-dressed is toeing self-expression against societal expectations. I find in the menswear resurgence other young people are largely ignoring this, championing classic tailoring for looks and attitude, often without tact for context and usually accomplished in poor taste.

 

[Mute]

Soft bigotry of low expectations.

 

[Betta]

If somebody showed up to an interview in a polo shirt and slacks , he would be sent home asap by me the interviewer . Unless you are applying for a job in a garage or MacDonalds, that is not an appropriate attire.

I feel like this gets missed often, context matters, but also gets blown out of proportion. I have been on the receiving end on both sides "under dressed" and "overdressed". Both made me more cynical and want to do the opposite to the point of not caring other than showing up "tidy".

1. Going to work in manufacturing with a uniform? Expected to show up in in three piece suit for interview?
2. Going to work in a restaurant with likely, a uniform? Expected to show up in in three piece suit for interview?
3. Going to work in a hospital, with likely, a uniform? Expected to show up in in three piece suit for interview?
4. Going to work at a law firm, completely remote? Expected to show up in in three piece suit for interview?

Wouldn't showing up in the attire they are most likely going to be utilizing be taken more of a sign of seriousness?