Is black suit an acceptable business attire?

[brescd01]

Maybe there are rules, but I don't think relatively young Americans are the best cataloguers of them. I have found virtually every "rule" that has been promulgated on the style fora to be questionable when checked against photos of style icons or the opinion of aged tailors. "Kissing" buttons, said to be the standard, turn out merely to be a preference. The distance of the buttons from the end of the sleeve, turns out to be a preference. Even vent length, turns out to be a preference. Of course, one can twist the definition of a "rule" until it screams. But in the aesthetics of dress, while I cannot say there are no "rules," there seem to be an infinite spectrum of relationships way beyond the scope of the written word, which involve texture and shade and proportion amongst other things. Centofanti often will tell me "This is not wrong, but that is better." There are no absolutes. Didn't the Duke himself, a style icon for the twentieth century, have his trousers made in New York rather than London to violate the "rules" set by his London tailors?

Bryce330, I spoke to one of the partners at your firm, and he told me you are one of the best lawyers there, though he did mention in passing he wished you wouldn't wear so many black suits....

A joke. A joke. No flames.

 

[Manton]

Maybe there are rules, but I don't think relatively young Americans are the best cataloguers of them.

Really? Â Would you deny the truth of the Pythagorean Theorem if it were accurately recited to you by a Fijian ten-year-old? Â The rules are like any other body of knowledge. Â They exist, and they can be learned by anyone, of any age, of any nationailty, through study, conversation and experience.

I have found virtually every "rule" that has been promulgated on the style fora to be questionable when checked against photos of style icons or the opinion of aged tailors. "Kissing" buttons, said to be the standard, turn out merely to be a preference. The distance of the buttons from the end of the sleeve, turns out to be a preference. Even vent length, turns out to be a preference.

You mistake the uneven or incorrect application of a rule with fungibility in the rule itself. Â Sleeve buttons are supposed to kiss. Â When they don't, the person who set them and cut the holes made a mistake. Â This is not a preference. Â Of course, it's bespoke, so if you want your sleeve buttons not to kiss, you can ask for that. Â But kissing is correct, and it should be the default position for any tailor. Vent length is not a preference; it depends on the wearer's height. Â (With one exception: cotton and linen and other highly wrinkly coats can take shorter vents, to cut down on the wrinkling.) The distance of buttons from the sleeve edge is the most fungible of the three. Â It ranges from 3/4" to 1 1/4", measured from the center of the button to the sleeve edge. Â My opinion is that this too depends on a person's height. Â The distance should never be greater than 1 1/4".

Centofanti often will tell me "This is not wrong, but that is better."

Yet Centofanti refused your express request for hacking pockets on a DB coat, becauase it is strongly against the rules. Â In my opinion, he saved that coat.

There are no absolutes.

Yes there are.

Didn't the Duke himself, a style icon for the twentieth century, have his trousers made in New York rather than London to violate the "rules" set by his London tailors?

No. Â He had his trousers made in New York because he liked low rise, belt-looped trousers, whereas Scholte hated them, and didn't want to make them. Â This was not a matter of the rules but of personal preference.

 

[AlanC]

There are two ends of the spectrum to which one can go. One can become frozen by 'the rules', which is not their purpose. Or one can ignore (or deny the existence of) the rules, and end up wearing the sorts of ensembles that could (and should.) have been avoided by an understanding of those rules.

I think it is generally acknowledged that those we applaud for great style knew the rules extraordinarily well, but became a master of the rules rather than being mastered by them. They would playfully tweak them in a way that only a confident master can. But the rules were always their anchor. It is only by recognizing that there are rules to the game can a true genius and master thrive and be recognized as such.

 

[johnapril]

That is why Faulkner's prose works, whereas nearly anyone else who attempts to strain language as he did would fail.

 

[Kai]

I have a black double breasted suit that I wear for business on a regular basis.  It's one of my wardrobe staples, particularly for serious business meetings or days in court.    

I actually got complemented on my black suit during a trial by a third party witness:

Me:  "Could you please state your name for the record?"

Witness"  "[Gives his name].  I have to say that that is the nicest suit I've ever seen in my life."  

Me:  "Um, uhh, um, uhh, Thanks.  What is your current profession?"  

It was kind of odd, but nice.  

I had a (very well dressed) judge also remark positively on my black suit once as well, saying how nice it was to see an attorney wearing something other than navy blue (which is what the other 8 attorneys in the courtroom were wearing.)  

So, my advice is to not shy away from wearing a black suit for business.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm wearing a black Brioni 2B SB suit today, with a light medium blue shirt from Sartoria Attolini (thanks Koji), and Brioni tie and have received more compliments than usual, as well, I think it can be a nice change, but do agree with those who have written that it's not the best choice with a white shirt during the day.

 

[j]

For some reason I think black suits have a much higher chance of looking cheap than charcoal or navy. Maybe it's the way the light makes the color look or something. Does anyone else get this impression?

Obviously, a well cut black suit in a good fabric won't look cheap, but I think in the midrange you might be safer going with navy or especially charcoal.

 

[johnnynorman3]

yes.

 

[drizzt3117]

J,

You could be right, I guess you run the risk of looking Jones NY or something with a midrange black suit. I have gotten good mileage out of the two I own though (Corneliani S150s, Brioni)

 

[hopkins_student]

Ok, I had avoided this thread for the longest time, and when I finally get to responding you have beaten me to the punch. I have always been told that cheap clothing should generally be back because it hides poor quality well. I could not disagree more. The only way I would consider wearing a black suit is if it were of impeccable quality. One of my good friends only owns a black suit, of poor quality. Not only does it draw attention to itself because it is black, but it is something that attention should not be drawn to. The exact same suit in navy or charcoal would be passable by my standards, not something I would choose, but ok for someone who really doesn't care. But the fact that it draws attention to itself just amplifies the poor quality. Now I have a question, are black suits still ok for funerals? I always thought they were the only thing ok for funerals. Right now, I'm relying on a charcoal suit to fill that function if I must, but I always assumed that some day I would own one black suit and it would be for funerals only.

 

[Manton]

Now I have a question, are black suits still ok for funerals? Â I always thought they were the only thing ok for funerals. Â Right now, I'm relying on a charcoal suit to fill that function if I must, but I always assumed that some day I would own one black suit and it would be for funerals only.

Well, I am on record as believing that black suits should not exist at all, so I would say no. But if you're going to wear a black suit, a funeral is probably its most appropriate occasion. Personally, my funeral attire is: the darkest gray suit I own, a worsted 3-piece, 2-button SB, with a DB vest; a white spread collar, french-cuff shirt; solid black grenadine tie; black socks with white and gray clocks; black cap toes.

 

[bryce330]

For some reason I think black suits have a much higher chance of looking cheap than charcoal or navy. Maybe it's the way the light makes the color look or something. Does anyone else get this impression?

I have to disagree strongly here - I think navy is easily the color most prone to looking "cheap," particularly in lighter shades. I see so many obviously cheap navy suits around here that it almost makes me physically ill sometimes. This is one of the reasons I almost never wear navy unless it is a very dark or midnight blue. I see a lot of cheap black and gray suits as well (I do live in the DC area after all) but I think in general, darker shades are better at hiding the imperfections or poor quality of a fabric. That said, many people are sadly not going to notice any difference between a Borrelli and some monstrosity from S&K Menswear, regardless of color.

 

[brescd01]

Okay Manton, let me take only one of your rules: kissing buttons. None of Centofanti's jackets have kissing buttons. I have seen several photos of similar jackets (just the other day someone posted a picture of something from Fallon I think without kissing buttons, perhaps Mortimer, I can't remember). Where is this a rule. and who defines it as such?

 

[Manton]

None of Centofanti's jackets have kissing buttons.

Then Centofanti is doing it wrong. I too have received coats from otherwise excellent tailors that don't have kissing buttons. Â It's disappointing. Â If it's a tailor whom I have any intention of using again, I go back and talk to him and insist that all future buttons kiss. Â If he's receptive, and I otherwise really like his cut and work, I may give him one more chace. Â But only one. Â It's not so hard to do, really. Â It just requires a little more precision in measuring. Â And the buttonholes, being closer together, are slightly harder to work, but only slightly.

I have seen several photos of similar jackets (just the other day someone posted a picture of something from Fallon I think without kissing buttons, perhaps Mortimer, I can't remember).

This is supposed to prove ... what, exactly? I see pictures all the time of guys wearing banded collars and/or four-in-hand ties with dinner jackets. Â Does that mean that the rules regarding black tie are wrong, or don't exist? Â Â I have given gifts for which I never received a thank-you note. Â Does that prove or even suggest that the etiquette regarding thank-you notes is incorrect? Â Why, I have even heard that some people commit crimes, despite the fact that doing so is clearly against the law. Â Are these people unaware? Â Or is it that those laws don't really exist? Â One to ponder.

Where is this a rule?

Like all rules, it is a concept or idea and as such does not exist in any spatial or corporeal sense. Like most rules, however, it is recorded in many written sources, and known to many individuals. Â Plus, as anyone can see, it just looks better.

and who defines it as such?

Are you asking for names? Â Seriously? Â No, that would not be reasonable. Â So I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean this merely as a dorm-room debator's trope, flung out in hope of flustering a confused opponent. Who defines any such rules? Â Emily Post went to the trouble to record the rules of etiquette. Â She did not claim to be their source, only their "secretary" as it were. Â I am sure she had to contend with plenty of indignant people who didn't like this or that rule, denied its existence, and blamed her for promulgating it. Clothing rules are a lot like etiquette. Â They bubble up in the ordinary course of human interaction. Â They are a mix of rational principle and tradition. Â They are not like the rules of a game with a clear inventor, for example James Naismith and basketball. Â They are more like the rules of golf, which appear to have evolved over centuries. Â But even that is not a perfect analogy, as the rules of golf have for some time been kept by an official, international organization. The closest thing that the rules of clothing have to an official keeper, I suppose, is the Federation of Merchant Tailors in London. Â I don't know if they have pronounced on buttons kissing or not. Â If they haven't, they should.

 

[Alias]

There's a rule for kissing buttons? I thought they were optional, and a regional fashion sort of thing.