I was going to go to SuperFuture to check out the thread there, but it's down apparently. There's some 5 page discussion going on about IRON ARMY. Check out their website: www.ironarmyclothing.com I think raw black Novio may be the next purchase I make. Since they're only from HTC they probably run at the highest end of Iron Army's price range, which apparently is ~$215. I need to check em out (but have no time to drive up there). All the fits that they make for men are the same straight-leg fit, the only difference between the names are the color and stitch color. The Novio have grey stitching and the Hiro Ito have white (too white for my taste). Those two draw my eye the most.