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Iraqi prisoner abuse

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by vero_group, May 5, 2004.

  1. vero_group

    vero_group Senior member

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    I think nothing less than court martial should be afflicted on those responsible for these acts. They have only done great harm to America's reputation in the Arab world -- a world we should care greatly about. We are back to ground zero in convincing most of them that we are for "good" not "bad".

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Agreed, and an apology from the military and/or Bush could soften some of the damage. Even better, forget interventionism and let the whole world see how extreme theocracy rots into poverty and obscurity. The truth shall set you free.
     
  3. PeterMetro

    PeterMetro Senior member

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    I agree that it's pretty deplorable.

    But, as far as POW abuse goes, it's pretty benign.
     
  4. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Senior member

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    petermetro,
    it's beyond abuse. the u.s. army has admitted that two cases have been confirmed as MURDERS. this was in the l.a. times yesterday.

    abuse is bad enough, but if the american public doesn't call for heads to roll after this, i will have lost all faith in my countrymen.
     
  5. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Senior member

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    this was published in the new york times today.

    also keep in mind that many of these people were not POWs, but "detainees" who were not officially charged with any crime.

    i heard an iraqui man yesterday on the radio offer this perspective: imagine if it was iraqui soldiers doing these things to american citizens in america. how would you feel about it then?
     
  6. Nick M

    Nick M Senior member

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    Well, I'm no expert, but I'd imagine the US administration would call it terrorism.

    Have there been any major political responses yet? This doesn't seem like the kind of thing the Middle-Eastern nations would take lying down...
     
  7. j

    j Senior member Admin

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    Well, to bring it back to another thread: I'd shoot them. This is why I totally understand the Iraqi "loyalist"/"militia" response and the need to withdraw our troops immediately. The UN or whoever may want to send peacekeeping forces and help train friendly military and police, but we have screwed the pooch bigtime and it's time to go.
     
  8. PeterMetro

    PeterMetro Senior member

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    Again, I agree that it's awful. My point is, when compared to past atrocities commited against POWs, detainees and people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (by armies of many countries, including the US), it's pretty tame. I'm not sure you can argue that.

    There is, of course, the argument that this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to abuses in Iraq. That, unfortunately, I'd believe.
     
  9. Bradford

    Bradford Senior member

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    I agree that it's a horrible abuse and we need to quickly deal with the soldiers who are involved.

    But let's not overlook the fact that Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator who killed and tortured hundreds of thousands of his own people. Despite the abuse by our soldiers, many more Iraqis will actually stay alive this year because of the removal of Hussein and his regime. And - unlike in the past cases of abuse in Iraq, these American reservists will no doubt be tried and brought to justice - once again showing the benefits of a free society.

    Bradford
     
  10. NavyStyles

    NavyStyles Senior member

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    Good point. I would never excuse what these soldiers have done -- and I would never excuse it if it were done to one of our soldiers. Like most everything, our intervention has its pluses and minuses. I just can't believe that the soldiers would even consider doing something like this. They must understand that their actions should be an extension of our feelings.
     
  11. esquire.

    esquire. Senior member

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    To say that there have been worse abuses under Saddam is irrelevant. He never claimed to do stuff for moral reasons. Right now, since there were no WMDs, we are trying to justify our invasion as doing it for 'moral reasons'. Yet, here we are, in some respects, being just as bad. To these Iraqis, what we did to them, was probably one of the worst things you could do to them- where we stripped them, and made them simulate sexual acts on other men.

    What 's really disturbing is that the reason the Bush administration is apologizing is because of the photos themselves are so inflammatory. If there were no photos, I doubt they'd be doing this. This wasn't a few bad apples. It was much more systemic than that.
     
  12. Bradford

    Bradford Senior member

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    Wow - I'm just going to quote President Bush here.

    "The dictatorship of Saddam Hussein was one of the most brutal, corrupt, and dangerous regimes in the world. For years, the dictator funded terrorists and gave reward money for suicide bombings. For years, he threatened and he invaded his neighbors. For years, he murdered innocent Iraqis by the hundreds of thousands. For years, he made a mockery of United Nations' demands that he account for his weapons. For years, Saddam Hussein did all these things. But he won't be doing any of them this year. Instead, he's sitting in a prison cell. And he will be sitting in a courtroom to answer for his crimes."

    George W. Bush

    OK - tell me that's not relevant. The relevancy is at the end where he points out that Saddam Hussein will be held accountable for his actions. In the same way, our soldiers will be held accountable for their actions. That's the difference between a free and open society like ours and a brutal dictatorship. I would never claim that we are perfect, but when we find a problem, we deal with it in a suitable manner.

    Your assertion that this is only happening because of the photographs is laughable. In a dictatorship, those photos would never even have seen the light of day. I'm confident that our troops would have been held accountable for their actions whether the photos had been released to the media or not.

    Bradford
     
  13. esquire.

    esquire. Senior member

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    When I said that if there were no photographs, I was referring to Bush apologizing. Otherwise, this would have been swept under the rug. I was watching O'Reily and he was arguing that we should have never shown the photos, and instead descirbed them. He knew that the brutality of the soldiers could not be described. Indeed, there have been much worse stuff on photographs and video. The question is whether or not that stuff will get released, because it wouldn't be 'patriotic.'

    For months, Amnesty International has complained about the abuses of the prison system.

    I think we shouldn't be arguing that Saddam was worse because we've set a higher standard for ourselves when we tried to shift the justifacation for war to moral reasons.

    Nobody is going to argue that Saddam wasn't a brutal dictator. But, there have been other tyrants, just as bad, who we don't invade. Oh yeah, and Saddam was one of the ones we coddled. Geez, where did he get most of his weapons back in the 80s while he was gassing his own people.
     
  14. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    America has a long, long history of interventionism and they were/are not all bad. Confronting Nazi Germany was largely based on pre-emptive reasonings as well as moral's, as in the case with Kosovo, and more recently, Haiti and Sierra Leone. Remember that the whole world was complaining that the US did NOT do enough military intervention in the time of the Rwandan genocide.
    Hint: http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle2038.htm
     
  15. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Sorry, did O'Reilly say that they shouldn't publicised the photos because they were too graphic or what?
     
  16. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Senior member

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    why does everyone keep discussing the abuse and ignoring the MURDERS?

    the red cross reported that 7 iraqi detainees were murdered by americans who shot them from a watch tower like they were taking shooting practice. (reminds me of a scene from schindler's list.)

    i heard this on the news yesterday but they spent 20 minutes talking about the abuses and 2 seconds on the murders as if they were an afterthought. before this the army reported that they investigating 10 cases of possible murders and that 2 had already been confirmed as such.

    am i the only one who thinks murder is more cause for alarm than abuse? am i not getting something?
     
  17. esquire.

    esquire. Senior member

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    O'Reily was saying that he would have never shown the photos like CBS, because they would be too inflamatory and serve as propaganda to America's enemies.
     
  18. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Wow, he didn't know there is something called 'freedom of speech' in America?
     
  19. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Senior member

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    i'm just bumping this up because i'm surprised that no one had an opinion on my comments.

    my friends think the government is conspiring with the press to highlight the abuses and therefore downplay the murders. i think that would be hard to pull off considering our government would have liitle such influence on the overseas media.
     
  20. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Haven't heard much about the murder case so can't really comment on it. However I just read this after reading the beheading news of an American civilian and was equally disgusted on the two events. On a brighter note: "Senator John McCain got up and left the room while his fellow Republican was speaking. Mr. McCain, who was captured and tortured during the Vietnam War, told reporters that he rejected Mr. Inhofe's position." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet....nt A U.S. senator lashed out Tuesday at the furor caused by photos showing the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. guards. Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe, a Republican, said that he was sick of complaints about the treatment of prisoners that he characterized as "terrorists" and "murderers." Ignoring a Red Cross report that said that up to 90 per cent of the prisoners held at Abu Ghraib prison had been rounded up by mistake, Mr. Inhofe suggested that no one should feel sorry for detainees who had been photographed in humiliating and degrading positions. "You know they're not there for traffic violations," he told a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands, and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals." Mr. Inhofe's position is sharply different from the repeated public statements emanating from the most senior levels of the U.S. government. President George W. Bush went on Arabic-language television to express U.S. outrage and Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld took "full responsibility" for troop misconduct. The House of Representatives passed a resolution last Thursday deploring the mistreatment or prisoners and, on Monday, the Senate voted 92-0 for the bipartisan resolution condemning the abuses at Abu Ghraib. It was not clear whether Mr. Inhofe had voted. A poll released Monday indicated that nearly three-quarters of Americans considered the treatment of Iraqi prisoners shown in the photographs to be unjustified under any circumstances. Mr. Inhofe's comments came during a committee appearance by U.S. Army Major-General Antonio Taguba, whose report detailed abuses at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. During questioning of the general, Mr. Inhofe prefaced his query with a lengthy statement denouncing the outrage spawned by the photos. "I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," he said. "I am also outraged that we have so many humanitarian do-gooders right now crawling all over these prisons looking for human-rights violations while our troops, our heroes, are fighting and dying." Senator John McCain got up and left the room while his fellow Republican was speaking. Mr. McCain, who was captured and tortured during the Vietnam War, told reporters that he rejected Mr. Inhofe's position.
     

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