iPhone finally here, the Western Civilization is saved

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by mussel, Jan 10, 2007.

  1. Brian SD

    Brian SD Moderator

    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    122
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Werd man, I find OSX to be absolutely frustrating to use. Apple Mice are retarded, I remember being forced to use a iMac in HS and use that worthless single button "cookie" shaped mouse that was uncomfortable and had a problem of clicking when I would just rest my hand on it. Like I said before I had no problems using code in DOS and Atari XT GUI wasnt bad either, Unix is ok but not something I would consider for day to day use. I never really liked the MAC it always seemed more trouble than it was worth to try and do anything I ever wanted in it.
    I think the mac does one really good thing and that is offer a computer that is super simple for basic tasks and shiny (probably still confusing for some of the simpletons who have no reason to even be behind the keyboard of a computer) and does not have the fuss of needing to compare its processors and features to compareable computers of other brands (as Apple is the only company). Shit if anything breaks on it the customer is pretty much SOL, cant upgrade majority of parts. So Basically only offering a couple basic options and then packaging it into a monitor and sometimes a desk lamp looking thing keeps people where they want to be with life handed to them nothing to really think about.
    There in lies the problem. Computers are too easy to use these days. You should have to learn a thing or two about how to properly use and opperate a computer before you can buy one. Would save tons of time with the Tech Support calls (and for some reason people have the idea that I should help them for free since I sold them a computer in my store. Thats what factory Tech Support is for. I dont have time to answer their asinine questions. They spout error codes at me like I care/know what the hell they are talking about over the phone, irks me just a bit).

    Another thing that kinda bugs me is that iPod is now the name of any MP3 Player to the majority of dimwhits that roam the streets. I have even seen kids at my school with white ear buds for other MP3 players (like a Sansa C250, which is black then they bought white aftermarket buds for it, lame!). I suppose that is the way things go though, most everyone wants to look or act trendy, even the kids that are against the grain (goths in the past, now Emo kids) are just as run of the mill as the preppy kids they just shop at different stores.


    Way wrong, why should we have to make computers easier to use? Restrict access to technology for what purpose.. elitism?

    Slim, why should an X stop the program? The X closes the window. File > Quit closes the program. Simple as that. Minimizing is retarded because it takes up start menu space. It's much better to keep the program running in the background but have all the windows closed. That way you don't have to start up Adobe programs from the splash screen every time, and at the same time you don't have clutter in your dock or start menu from minimizing. Instead, on one of those little dock icons, it puts a little black arrow underneath it so you know it's still running.

    Everyone who says Mac OS X is frustrating to use only says it because they grew up on PCs and so things only make sense when filtered through PC goggles.

    Completely and 100% incorrect. You CAN upgrade the parts. The only part that would be difficult to get ahold of would be the CPU. And I'm not sure how difficult it is, its just the only part off the top of my head that I am not 100% certain there is an accessible replacement for it.

    Look, some people don't want to think about how to build a computer because they just don't *CARE* that much. By your ridiculous standards, everyone would be required to be a computer nerd to simply use a computer to do things like upload photos, write word documents and email, surf the web, etc. Illogical and ridiculous.

    It's like those Porsche fanatics who think a car should be difficult to drive so people really care about it and learn their car. Great for them, not great for the other people who just want to get to work on time in the morning.

    This is exactly why I continue to defend Macs. I know you don't care what tool I use Slim, and on a lot of things we see eye-to-eye.

    I'd venture to say that I know quite a lot about computers. More than most people do, that's for sure. I don't know programming code, but I can fix pretty much any hardware or software malfunctioning in Windows and most of them in Mac (like I said, only been using OS X a couple years). That said, taking into account all of the things like software availability (downloadable 3rd party media players, bittorrent clients, audio editing tools, etc.), product/industrial design (I don't care if you don't like it Slim, but I'm not crazy nor ignorant on design principles, and Jonathon Ives has won several AWARDS [i.e. from people more reputable than you and I] for his designs for Apple), and general functionality of the OS X (all the things I mentioned, integration between program, intuitive functions), I just can't see how Windows could be perceived as overall better. I understand it's better for some stuff - games, the sheer amount of programs available, compatibility with Joe from buttfuck nowhere's program he uploaded, price.

    And BTW, goths and emos were always pathetic losers, even before they became mainstream. I've been in the music scene for many years, and I've always thought they were dipshits.
     


  2. ratboycom

    ratboycom Senior member

    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Location:
    Nagoya, Japan
    Way wrong, why should we have to make computers easier to use? Restrict access to technology for what purpose.. elitism?

    Slim, why should an X stop the program? The X closes the window. File > Quit closes the program. Simple as that. Minimizing is retarded because it takes up start menu space. It's much better to keep the program running in the background but have all the windows closed. That way you don't have to start up Adobe programs from the splash screen every time, and at the same time you don't have clutter in your dock or start menu from minimizing. Instead, on one of those little dock icons, it puts a little black arrow underneath it so you know it's still running.

    Everyone who says Mac OS X is frustrating to use only says it because they grew up on PCs and so things only make sense when filtered through PC goggles.



    Completely and 100% incorrect. You CAN upgrade the parts. The only part that would be difficult to get ahold of would be the CPU. And I'm not sure how difficult it is, its just the only part off the top of my head that I am not 100% certain there is an accessible replacement for it.

    Look, some people don't want to think about how to build a computer because they just don't *CARE* that much. By your ridiculous standards, everyone would be required to be a computer nerd to simply use a computer to do things like upload photos, write word documents and email, surf the web, etc. Illogical and ridiculous.

    It's like those Porsche fanatics who think a car should be difficult to drive so people really care about it and learn their car. Great for them, not great for the other people who just want to get to work on time in the morning.



    This is exactly why I continue to defend Macs. I know you don't care what tool I use Slim, and on a lot of things we see eye-to-eye.

    I'd venture to say that I know quite a lot about computers. More than most people do, that's for sure. I don't know programming code, but I can fix pretty much any hardware or software malfunctioning in Windows and most of them in Mac (like I said, only been using OS X a couple years). That said, taking into account all of the things like software availability (downloadable 3rd party media players, bittorrent clients, audio editing tools, etc.), product/industrial design (I don't care if you don't like it Slim, but I'm not crazy nor ignorant on design principles, and Jonathon Ives has won several AWARDS [i.e. from people more reputable than you and I] for his designs for Apple), and general functionality of the OS X (all the things I mentioned, integration between program, intuitive functions), I just can't see how Windows could be perceived as overall better. I understand it's better for some stuff - games, the sheer amount of programs available, compatibility with Joe from buttfuck nowhere's program he uploaded, price.

    And BTW, goths and emos were always pathetic losers, even before they became mainstream. I've been in the music scene for many years, and I've always thought they were dipshits.


    First off I am not defending dipshit goths/emo kids/preppy(AF Douche Rockets) I was just saying that no matter how "different" you think you are/act there is always some kind of conformity to it all.

    Ok so if you can upgrade parts there are not many aftermarket options for parts, not nearly the expandability of a WIN pc. I am not really defending windows either as neither OS is perfect.

    I am not requesting that everyone be a computer nerd but for Christ sake I had to explain to a lady for 40 min and show her repeatedly how to use a flash drive. I get people who have no idea how to even install software. I just think that it would be perfectly good if you were required to have basic knowledge of how to own/operate/and maintain a computer before you go and click on a "You are stupid and just won this free ____ just put in your credit card information now" banner ad then get yourself into a world of hurt monetarily. I agree with the Porsche guys to some extent. If people had to learn and remember more than 1. Put Gas in it. 2. Press Accelerator Pedal and occasionally Brake pedal while in "D", they would be better drivers.
    Dealing with both car and computer issues are something that I have done professionally and in my free time, and always there is someone who doesn't know their ass from their elbows and wants to get something for free out of me. Usually because they are too ignorant to understand me (even when I put it into stupid way dumbed down terms) so they waste my time.
    ok enough ranting for me, thats it I'm done with going on and on about that, no more on this thread.
    So just from my experiences with macs as a wee lad all the way up to doing video editing back in HS it was mostly not a positive experience and that I preferred the use of Win/Dos and programs that made more sense to me over the simplified and confusing mac counterpart.
     


  3. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim In Time Out

    Messages:
    19,179
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    Where Eagles Dare!
    Slim, why should an X stop the program? The X closes the window. File > Quit closes the program. Simple as that. Minimizing is retarded because it takes up start menu space. It's much better to keep the program running in the background but have all the windows closed. That way you don't have to start up Adobe programs from the splash screen every time, and at the same time you don't have clutter in your dock or start menu from minimizing. Instead, on one of those little dock icons, it puts a little black arrow underneath it so you know it's still running. Everyone who says Mac OS X is frustrating to use only says it because they grew up on PCs and so things only make sense when filtered through PC goggles.
    I already explained to you why a red button with an x should close the program. Do I really need to repeat myself? I guess I do, so I'll say it about three more times just to make sure. I'm sure that if you think about it long enough and without "Mac Goggles" you can figure it out Mr. product design. [​IMG] On a firefox window, when you press the big red button with an X, it shuts down all the firefox tabs within the window, the program closes, and when you reopen firefox, you start from your homepage. Its the way it should be. It is universally the way things are done. Going into the "file" menu is fine, but more COMPLEX than neccesary and is counterintuitive to what the entire history of red buttons tells you should close the program. So again. A button with the color red (this one just happens to have an X, some are octagonal shaped) is the universal button for close/stop/end/or desist. The page you were viewing doesn't continue to run invisibly until you execute a menu command. RED is universally STOP. End of story. Apple got it wrong. Anyone with half a brain for design will agree that its confusing, and doesn't need to be this way. Brian, there's no sense in "insulting" minimizing a program, THATS WHAT YOUR DOCK IS. Its exactly the same as with windows, but instead of a "bar" you just have a chain of bouncing, annoying icons. The red X button (logically speaking) should NOT get your program there. Red is the wrong color for that. I will beat it into your head because I cannot believe Mac has you THAT brainwashed. Its incomprehensable that you would defend that. Its like defending putting a pull handle on a door that only opens when you push it. Yeah, it might look fancy, but its the wrong design for the application. Remember Brian, we already agreed that everyone in the US under age 40 grew up using Macs in school, so please stop with the excuse that its because we grew up "using PC" and are somehow biased twords it. We grew up using Mac, found it lacking, and moved on.
     


  4. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim In Time Out

    Messages:
    19,179
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    Where Eagles Dare!
    Brian, RED MEANS STOP
     


  5. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Brian, RED MEANS STOP
    [​IMG]
     


  6. Babar

    Babar Senior member

    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Norway
    On a firefox window, when you press the big red button with an X, it shuts down all the firefox tabs within the window, the program closes, and when you reopen firefox, you start from your homepage. Its the way it should be. It is universally the way things are done. Going into the "file" menu is fine, but more COMPLEX than neccesary and is counterintuitive to what the entire history of red buttons tells you should close the program. So again. A button with the color red (this one just happens to have an X, some are octagonal shaped) is the universal button for close/stop/end/or desist. The page you were viewing doesn't continue to run invisibly until you execute a menu command. RED is universally STOP. End of story. Apple got it wrong. Anyone with half a brain for design will agree that its confusing, and doesn't need to be this way.
    This doesn't make sense in an app like Firefox which can still serve a purpose with all windows closed (a download shouldn't stop just because the downloads window is closed for example). OSX actually combines the best of both worlds with regards to this. Apps that only have one window, and that serves no purpose with this one window closed, such as iPhoto, System Preferences etc are quit when the red button is clicked. Other apps, like Firefox, Photoshop, Safari etc do not quit when the last open window is closed. Remember that Windows is document centric, whereas OSX is application centric. Therefore, these apps should stay open even if there's no open window. Dig?
     


  7. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    A few little comments: From a HCI/HF perspective, having an application in the background that appears to be gone violates the simple maxim of being able to discern the current state immediately. And while OS X can be said to be "easy to use" it is usually considered that way by people that have become acclimatised to it. You stick as n00b on any modern OS, they'll be at a loss as to what they will do. Anyone claiming otherwise has indeed drank the kool aid. The increase in computer use is due to more forced exposure to computers during growing up and people suffering through the understanding of the desktop paradigm and applications and folders and files and crap. As much as it saddens me, there has been no real improvekent in interfaces since Xerox came up withy tehy idea. Slight incremental changes, nothing that has lead to a paradign shift. While I may have mentioned it before, the late Jeff Raskin had some fascinating ideas on new models of interfaces that could have been spectacular (and that Microsoft claimed would be in XP, then in Longhorn, then in Vista) such as the distinction between applications and the files they produce being eliminated (think datatypes for any old Amiga users but much more cohesive and advanced). See this. Granted many of us that have been using computers for a long time would baulk at the thought of the OS hiding all the underlying structure. That is a major beef I had with OS9 and below even past the archaic lack of multitasking (w0rst OS evah lolzzz11!!!!one!!). OS X is a quantum leap, even though I don't particularly like it. And a sidenote: My favourite way of dealing with application windows was the Amiga OS way for having independent draggable screens that could be controlled by the application down to the point that they could have diffeerent resolutions. I really miss that. But I never liked the fact that the menus were hidden until you held down the right mousebutton. Clean and uncluttered yes, easy to use, no.
     


  8. Brian SD

    Brian SD Moderator

    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    122
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Location:
    Tokyo
    This doesn't make sense in an app like Firefox which can still serve a purpose with all windows closed (a download shouldn't stop just because the downloads window is closed for example). OSX actually combines the best of both worlds with regards to this. Apps that only have one window, and that serves no purpose with this one window closed, such as iPhoto, System Preferences etc are quit when the red button is clicked. Other apps, like Firefox, Photoshop, Safari etc do not quit when the last open window is closed. Remember that Windows is document centric, whereas OSX is application centric. Therefore, these apps should stay open even if there's no open window.

    Dig?


    THANK you. I repeat Slim, you only think the way you do because you grew up on Windows. I did too, but obviously I'm less affected by Apple's marketing than you are, because I don't have a vendetta one way or the other.

    The functionality is there in OS X. Your RED MEANS STOP thing is pretty accurate, but the part about closing the whole program is only relevant to you becuase you've usually worked with Windows. Red X means close the window. File > quit means quit.

    No one is being fooled into thinking the program is still open. It's got that little arrow on the dock so you know it's still open. Windows, on the other hand, will allow many programs to continue running without notifying you, after you think it's been closed, and the only way to see them is to CTRL + ALT + DEL and look at the process list.
     


  9. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    THANK you. I repeat Slim, you only think the way you do because you grew up on Windows. I did too, but obviously I'm less affected by Apple's marketing than you are, because I don't have a vendetta one way or the other.

    The functionality is there in OS X. Your RED MEANS STOP thing is pretty accurate, but the part about closing the whole program is only relevant to you becuase you've usually worked with Windows. Red X means close the window. File > quit means quit.



    No one is being fooled into thinking the program is still open. It's got that little arrow on the dock so you know it's still open. Windows, on the other hand, will allow many programs to continue running without notifying you, after you think it's been closed, and the only way to see them is to CTRL + ALT + DEL and look at the process list.


    Ah, but Brian, I am not talking about TSRs or programs that have been caught up in some memory issue ion Windows where they lose their window(s). I am talking about normal applications. And a little arrow is not necessarily an obvious way to know especially for a n00b/neophyte. Frankly I don't like having to rely on the taskbar on Windows to work oyut what it running either.
    State display in general is a piece of shit in the vast majority of modern systems. I can find so many damn things to gripe about about modern computers that it is not even funny.
     


  10. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim In Time Out

    Messages:
    19,179
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    Where Eagles Dare!
    THANK you. I repeat Slim, you only think the way you do because you grew up on Windows. I did too, but obviously I'm less affected by Apple's marketing than you are, because I don't have a vendetta one way or the other.
    Well obviously you are too far gone for me to talk any sense into you. Again, I did not grow up on Windows. Didn't get my first PC until 1994/95, as I stated earlier. Been using Mac since I started school in 85. Why you continue to use that as "reasoning" for why people dislike MacOS is baffling. I've given you a "billion reasons" (using your previous teminology) why MacOS is not as great, easy, or well designed as its cracked up to be. I could give you a billion more about Windows or Linux or anything else, but I'm not the one who parades around all the time waving my "design awards" in people's faces. That would be Apple, even though for every year apple HASN'T won the design award for something, guess what... chances are more than half the time a PC or PC designer has won it. But unfortunately you've already committed yourself to liking it and thanks to the marketing scheme your personal identity is now at stake if you admit there are things about it which don't make sense to a lot of people, aren't very logical or well designed, are difficult to accomplish, or are just plain "different for the sake of being different". I don't want to make you feel invalidated as a person, or cause any emotional trauma because you tied the very core of your personal identity to a niche OS I'd hoped you would be more aware of your motivations than that.
    Great - so in an overly complicated and counterintuitive world, file>quit = quit. I get that. You've already becomed accustomed to having to bend over backwards for OSX and you don't mind. Fantastic. GREAT. But let me point out to you that "quit" is a pretty vague word, and if its to be found in the file menu, I'd be wanting to quit the file. What if I want to quit the program? Where is the Program menu? TEACHER, HELP! Its roughly the same in windows, the "file" menu has always been bullshit if you ask me, no matter which platform its on, but at least in windows you know there is more than one way to get out of your program. Get real dude. People who have never used a computer before (your target audience, remember?) don't know that file>quit is the only way to close a program. You have to teach them that. They DO know that red buttons should stop a program. Again, brian, because red means stop.
    Really? Here's an interesting story. I'd been using OSX for about six months on the G5 before I figured out that I had photoshop, FCP, maya, protools and half a dozen other programs running in the background everytime I sat down to work in class. Instead of closing the program after class, everyone in classes prior had been pushing the red button, including the instructor who hasn't used a PC since the late 80's. It eats up your 2GB of RAM REALLY FAST when you have a whole bunch of seperate FCP and MAYA projects open and running one of which is still compiling when you get there, a protools project, and a bunch of other crap in the background. A little black arrow didn't tell me any of that. Little black arrows don't intuitively tell you anything except, "look at this", and the arrows were so small that I don't think I ever noticed them. My computer slowing down to the point of freezing when I opened firefox told me that something was probably wrong. Little black arrows are symologically void of a precise meaning you know (unlikelike the color red Brian, which means stop). So "no one being fooled into thinking the program is still open" doesn't account for at least three classes worth of university students. Many of which have never used a mac before, granted, but which doesn't defeat my argument of red = stop being the wrong color for a minimizing button. If he difference between the program kernel being active in the process list (win) and THE PROGRAM being open, compiling information, actively downloading stuff from the internet, and etc. after a person thinks they've closed it is enormous.Yes the process list can be pretty complicated and annoying, but honestly, a beginning computer user will probably never have to touch it because its pretty impossible to randomly have so many open process threads, that it affects your computer at all after the software is no longer running. (you know, after the push the red button)
     


  11. kimizz0

    kimizz0 Member

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    I got my first Mac several months ago to play around with things like Garageband and iLife, knowing that because of the switch to Intel I could run Windows or Linux (yea if it were PPC still I could get a PPC distro, but I digress) if I didn't like the OS. OS X definitely has some quirks that take getting used to if you've been using Windows or most other desktop environments (I say most because, while in my experience I've yet to encounter another DE that behaves in the way Aqua does, there may be one out there). I've been a big fan of Gentoo Linux since somewhere around 2002-2003; I liked the Portage system for managing applications and Gnome and other open source software suited my needs just fine. But I figured, hey, why not try something new? So I got an iMac.

    Aqua really is a pretty interface, but beauty is subjective. I've skinned my XP partition with a Vista theme, and I think the Vista style is really nice looking and functional as well. However, the iMac physically is also nice looking. It also doesn't take up much space, which is important when you're living in a barracks [​IMG]

    I'm really not one to push my beliefs onto other people, which is something that I find very disgusting with the Mac community (it also exists in the Linux community to a fair extent). I've also met people who put down everything but Windows, flaming because they think I use OS X because I want to be different from the rest of the crowd or some other crap. Meh, to each his own.
     


  12. Brian SD

    Brian SD Moderator

    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    122
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Location:
    Tokyo
    You're absolutely right. In the face of direct insults at Mac users from a historically argumentative poster, and despite my attempt at logical reasons as to why the OS X is a superior operating system (whether you refuse to agree with them or not, they are valid arguments none the less and I find most people that I've talked to agree with me), I have absolutely no idea that Apple's marketing has taken over my life and caused me to protect my own identity from people who might suggest that the OS I prefer is less functional, less attractive, etc. It has nothing to do with someone calling me a sheep or a tool, it's because I'm sensitive to criticism on the computer that I prefer to use. Give me a break. You make a compelling case, and you even had me believing a few times that I'm more smug than I thought. Then I realized that for every time you've labelled Mac users as smug, you've been twice as smug yourself. Not that this bothers you I'm sure.

    Apple doesn't go around flaunting design awards. Car companies do that. I found out about Jonathon Ives' awards by reading a profile and interview with him somewhere. Do you know the other people winning awards for PC designs? They're for 1-piece PCs (which you have made so obvious that you hate), like this one:

    [​IMG]

    I never said OS X was perfect. A lot of complaints you have with it are valid. It is annoying that you have to upgrade your OS to newer versions to get certain firmware and driver updates, and more often than not you have to pay the $79 or whatever for that upgrade. Yea, that sucks.

    I also hate the standard Apple mouse as well as the Might mouse and so I use a 2-button + clickable scroll wheel Logitech optical mouse. I also do not like the fact that the backspace button is called 'Delete.' There *is* a Delete button on the Mac keyboards and it has the same function as the delete key on PC keyboards. I wish they would just call the big Delete key 'Backspace.'

    Though the way OS X switches back and forth through languages and allows you to create glyphs in any situation with the option key is highly convenient, so I credit the keyboard on that regard. It also looks quite nice and the buttons are pretty ergonomic feeling.

    So open Opera. You go to google, search for images of Jennifer Connelly or whoever, start up a torrent, and now you're done on the computer. Close up the Opera window, it's gone, your desktop is clean, but the program is still running to keep your download going. Want your download to stop? Go to file quit or right click the Opera icon and go to Quit. Apple+Q does it I think too, I can't remember. Note that the little black arrow underneath the icon fades away. Also note that the icon doesn't jump up and down, nor does it expand and shrink because it's that easy to make it plain. Also it (the dock) can be hidden from view until you mouse over it. But also take note at how well the icons and font are anti-aliased and add a pleasant feel to the desktop.

    How is that not intuitive? Like I said, your argument "RED X MEANS STOP" makes perfect sense, but I don't get where it has to mean that X means STOP THE PROGRAM. It could just as well mean STOP THE WINDOW. In the case of OS X (and Windows as well), the programmer has the ability to determine which of those two functions it does. It took me 2 or 3 days to get used to the idea that X means close the window, but not the program. After I got used to the idea, I found it to be far more functional and intuitive.

    By the way I was dumb and kept saying File > Quit. The quit function isn't in the file menu its in the program menu, which is the first thing on the top command menu. I love how the command menu is separate from the windows, by the way. Less clutter = less confusing. Always go to the same place for commands like show, hide, quit, about.

    Okay first off, Maya and ProTools aren't using the computer's resources if there are no projects open. If there are projects open you either will see them 1) On the desktop or 2) Minimized in the dock. The other option is that the student hid the program in the program menu, which is the only one that I could possibly give you credit for not knowing. But dude, your classmates, and especially your professor, are either purposefully leaving the program open because they plan to switch back to it later or just don't care, or your entire class is seriously lacking some stuffing in their skulls.

    I don't have experience with FCP so I don't know. By the way, you can use Apple+Tab to switch through open programs so if you're not wearing your glasses and can't see the arrow on the dock, you can get some 128 pixel icons right in front of your face to scroll through.

    It's not a minimize button. It's a close button. There is a minimize function on the OS X. It's the yellow minus button. It sends the window into the dock, but like I said, I never use it. I like my dock to be clean and uncluttered. I switch through programs with Apple + Tab and expose, but I rarely ever use minimize.

    The point is that there is a difference between close and quit. The red X button is close. Apple+Q, right-click the dock icon (which will temporarily appear if you're opening a program from the App folder which isn't docked), or Program Menu > Quit Program if you want to close the program.

    I'd much rather have it so that Photoshop stays open when I'm done working on the photo and I'm bringing it into Illustrator or Indesign, and then I have to go in and close the program manually. I switch all the time between those three programs, plus Opera for checking email, and I hate it how you're FORCED to take up room in the start menu if you want to minimize in Windows. I'd much rather them just sit in that little space next to the clock. It takes me all of two seconds to right click all the arrow'd icons in the dock and quit the programs, if I feel like I'm hurting for resources, and I pretty much never am, because the program is in a pseudo-sleep mode when you haven't used it for awhile but left it open and hardly takes up any resources at all, regardless the computer is some 8 GB of RAM. Also, if I don't want to put the Opera window with Yahoo Mail loaded up into the dock, I can just Apple+H and it will disappear until I click the dock icon again.

    I would accept the argument that for people who have a Windows PC at home, using Mac OS X can be frustrating at first, even up to a couple months, and that it takes a lot of getting used to to really appreciate the functionality of the OS. That's how it was for me, and my roommate, and my three friends who all bought Macs. At the point I'm at, with my experience with OS X, it has far surpassed any functionality I have found in Windows, not to mention the aesthetically pleasing elements which actually improve my artwork by making the computer more like a canvas than a piece of graph paper.

    I also think that for someone who has NEVER used a computer, OS X makes things pretty damn easy for them. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. There are always going to be people who think that their emails and schedules and bookmarks are all stored in the keyboard. Give them the system that takes less thinking.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have a Windows PC, and I like it, despite the fact that it's too loud, crashes every once in awhile despite my best efforts at finding the cause (I think its bad RAM and I cant afford to replace it / not inconvenienced enough by crashes to be bothered), and that I like OS X better. Neither OS is perfect.

    But dammit I'll keep making these meaningless posts about the virtues of the red x button and expose so long as you keep spouting stupid condescending shit about me being a marketing tool, smug, etc.
     


  13. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim In Time Out

    Messages:
    19,179
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    Where Eagles Dare!
    You're absolutely right. In the face of direct insults at Mac users from a historically argumentative poster
    I dunno, I think I've been pretty indirect and vague as far as my insults have gone. And "historically argumentative"??? Do you expect me to agree with you Mac kids all the time or something? Of course I'm going to argue the other side of the issue. You are so sensitive! [​IMG] If I would have wanted to come out and bash you Brian, we wouldn't have been holding this discourse for as long as we have... and here I thought I was holding back my tirades rather well. My last post sounded a little frustrated because I had the distinct impression that you were intentionally playing stupid by refusing to honestly acknowledge the points I brought up. (which you have finally done and I will address later, which I thank you for) Too many times, in these Mac vs PC arguments, not you specifically, but in general... people who cannot think for themselves and tend to spout Apple corporate doublespeak at me when they have nothing else to fall back on. Which of course frustrates me beond belief and further proves my point that many mac-users opinions are formed by the propagana put out by the marketing department, not by actually knowing anything about the computers in front of them. And boy does it get irritating. Issue at hand #1: If you just like the way it looks, just say "I like the way it looks". I'm fine with that. DON'T sit here and spoon feed me BS about how people who know more about design than I do give Apple awards. People who know more about vehicles than I do give awards to Ford trucks too. That doesn't mean that a Ford truck is the perfect vehicle of choice for anyone, or inherently more well designed than any other vehicle out there. Design awards are 50 percent corporate gladhanding, 40% BS and 10% politics. Jonathan Ive won design awards for the Mac Cube. It was different. Which is about all it takes to get "Design Awards". Notice I didn't say good, or useful. Just different. The case design caused the thermal vent to be poorly placed, and caused many of them to have overheating issues, the power supply was a huge brick, the cables were a mess, not to mention the hardware side of the stupid thing not supporting many of the contemporary monitors available to it at the time of launch, it not actually being very useful, and etc. Actually it was sort of a design monstrosity, and yet the awards were given. The original iMac. Candy colored, underpowered,and nearly universally panned as somewhat useless except for the most basic users, trashy quality and poorly designed mouse and keyboard. Again, design award. If a Dell case, as you pointed out, can win a design award... it just goes to show how out of touch anyone actually is with reality in the "Design awards circuit". And don't even get me started on the Oscars. [​IMG] Issue at hand #2: Historically, a computer or OS is only well-designed and intuitive until the next radically different version or model comes out, then the last one was crap. Apple is particularly heinous at this historically speaking. Countless people told me that OS9 was a vastly superior program to windows XP. It wasn't, in my and many people's opinions today, OS9 was crap. Countless people will tell me soon that OSX Persian Longhair or whatever is superior to Vista. But they will only say that until the next one comes out. It's the same old story. Chances are, that aside from the UNIX base and its inherent benefits/liabilities, every single discernable difference is subjective. OSXMCVIII will be touted as being better than Windows Valhalla Plus Pro TurboII. MacOS is always "better than Windows". I've heard it before. And so has everyone else. Problem is, its all subjective. Not only is it not quanitfiably better in any end user capability (just different, which there is nothing wrong with, as long as you understand that different doesn't automatically = better), its bundled with an expensive peice of hardware, that regardless of whether you like the design or not, is different that what you already have and are familiar with. Remember that The G5 Apple tower was supposed to be the best graphics and media computer available to the consumer when it came out, It was supposed to blow people away with its speed and performance, but was consistantly outperformed by both cheaper AMD and Intel based computers, including those from Dell and HP in every independant test done in the months just after its release. The main reason the switch from PowerPC to Intel took place is simply that Intel is a better platform. Faster, cheaper, cooler, more efficient. Anyone who refutes this is fooling themselves. So why then have people been trying to beat us over the head with how much better and higher quality Apple's hardware has been than say... Dell and HP for the past 10+ years? Now Apple uses the same hardware as Dell and HP. Amazing how the hype machine works isn't it? Congratulations all you lifelong Apple fans out there, the hype machine has left you without a leg to stand on... So you'll have to excuse me when I don't ever really believe any hardware or software hype I hear about the machines. I'll always fight the notion that Apple does anything "better" than PC, except what the available software is specialized to do better. Video, Graphics, and Music editing.
    I don't recall calling you a sheep or a tool, nor directing any comments of that nature twords you in the article until you put up a defending wall of what appeared to be "Apple can do no wrong". It was such a joke that I had to call you on it. Them's the breaks man. You take a ridiculously worded (if not intended) stance on a subject, and you get called out for being a fanboy with huge blinders on. I apologize if it hurt your feelings. I just call em like I see em. I occasionally fall into the trap of typing my stance on this subject as if it was all about MacOS vs Windows. As if MS Windows has anything to do with it. Which it doesn't. Windows just happens to be the best available alternative to the domineering control that Apple wants to impose on their computers, to make it more palatable to people they obviously have little esteem for. Windows is by far, not a perfect operating system. It just happens to be the one that gives the users the most choice when it comes to software, backwards compatibility (another thing Mac sucks at), upgradability, and everything else that many people find lacking in a closed OS like OSX. I don't mean that to sound like a wholesale endorsement of Windows, it has its problems too, but the upside is far better than OSX in my opinion. (which is what it all boils down to, opinion)
    See, a post or two ago this wasn't the road you were on. I'm glad to see we haven't lost you.
    Switching back and forth between languages is pretty easy in Windows too. My computer switches back and forth between Katakana/Hiragana/Kanji/English with the push of a button. I'm not sure how much easier than that it could get with a Mac, but maybe it is. I'm glad you think the keyboard is nice. Keyboards are very important and I'm glad that they've gotten better. The original iMac keyboards were complete peices of crap. The keyboards I was using at school were mostly FCP keyboards and seemed relatively decent, though not really designed for typing long periods of time.
    I don't know that you are capable of caring about the difference between minimize and close. I am. When a program window disappears from the main view but is still running, it is minimized. In my experience, and nearly everyone elses who is familiar with graphic user interfaces of all shapes and flavors, there is a button on every program window that closes it. When I click the red button on photoshop, it closes. Firefox, closes. Any program I can think of same deal. In windows, if you attempt to close a program while its doing something, it asks you if thats ok... if not, you minimize it. To answer your question more directly, most computer users, and most users of ANYTHING understand that the visible controllable part of the program or item IS the program or item. When you close the visible part of a program, you should be closing the program. When you remove the key from your automobile, you don't expect it to continue running without any direction from you. It doesn't matter whether you are in the middle of the street or not.
    OMG, this is CLASSIC!!!!! It took you two or three days to figure out the "intuitive" program? Man, your intuition must suck. [​IMG] Do you realize the utter irony of these words? I rest my case.
    Thanks for clearing that up, I mean, after all, you are the one with a mac in front of you. If you can't remember how to close the program, I dunno how I'm supposed to. [​IMG]
    So red sends the program where again? If yellow sends it to the dock... red does what? I thought that this is my entire point. The red button should close the program. In my experience this isn't the case. When I hit the red button, the program ends up back in the dock. Am I mistaken? Your program (and your argument) confusing much?
    My point is that there shouldn't be a difference between close and quit. Close and minimize are so close in function on an Apple for there to be a negligable difference. So why even bother? It is confusing and unneccesary (my entire argument from the get-go, where have you been?) Make yellow "close" the program, and make red "quit" the program. It makes more sense that way. Why have two buttons that essentially do the same function? If red is univeral for stop, then why does the red button on a program not stop it? THAT IS COUNTERINTUITIVE. One of these days you are going to understand what I'm saying if its the last damn thing I do on planet earth.
    WTF are you talking about? When you minimize a program window it goes into the task bar, which is MS equivalent of the dock. Doesn't go into the Start Menu at all. Our icons have a rectangular border around ours, with rectangular program and window icons, yours are borderless and round icons that bounce around, otherwise - same difference. The taskbar also contains a clock, so I'm thinking this is what you are talking about. Otherwise you are living in bizzaro world or something.
    Its all in your head dude. Maybe its what you need, but its touchy-feely stuff like that with no basis in any type of objectivity that really make no sense to me. The fact that your computer looks like a mac makes it easier to do art than if your computer looked like anything else? Congratulations, but I have no idea what that is supposed to mean or prove. Thats a Unicorn man, an argument that doesn't actually exist in nature, a mythical beast. The ultimate mac one-upsmanship. I've never seen a PC that instills a sense of superiority like that. I've seen a lot of computers that IMO, look as good or better than a mac, or that don't even look like computers. Ones that look like a fishtank, ones that look like a television (mine looks like a regular tv and entertainment system) but never one that inspires random, senseless babbling about canvas and graph paper. It must take a special kind of crazy for that. [​IMG]
    You can't afford new RAM that will make your computer run, but you can afford to buy a mac.The irony in this situation is almost too much to bear. One can only hope your PC didn't need RAM until after you purchased your Mac. [​IMG]
    Please do, I enjoy discussing it with you. And I assure you that as long as you continue to use fabricated, nonsensical anti-PC rhetoric straight from the mac-hivebrain collective, referencing opinions as factual information (without disclaimer), and closing out your posts with sparkly magical design unicorns, I will continue to call you a smug marketing tool in an equally matching level of smugness in deference to your own. It's more fun for both of us this way. It is now 8:22 in the morning. I'm going to bed.
     


  14. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

    Messages:
    6,324
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Pet peeve I need to get out. There is NO such thing as something intuitive. Not only is it a pipe dream, but it is also something that will make most HCI or Human Factors professionals cringe like nobody's business.
    If anyone wants to find out more about this I can put more info on it but I will let the dueling continue otherwise [​IMG]
     


  15. Dakota rube

    Dakota rube Senior member

    Messages:
    14,507
    Likes Received:
    193
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Location:
    A bit better than yesterday, all day vomiting for
    So, anyone hear Apple introduced a new cell phone? [​IMG]
     


Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by