Individual carved lasts versus adjusted lasts

[londonboy]

I am starting a new post after an exchange with Fabro regarding Koronya shoes.

My understanding, also from A Harris posts, is that Vass in Budapest does not offer actual bespoke, but adjusts existing RTW lasts. I have also seen posts from Tricker on Ask Andy's that sometimes a piece or two of cork added to an RTW last will suffice to give a bespoke quality fit, and this person claims to be a Northampton shoemaker or factory worker.

My understanding from Fabro, further, is that Koronya offers both this kind of MTO service and actual bespoke with individually carved lasts.

I doubt I will find a person, but has anyone actually had experience with both techniques? If so, is there a noticeable benefit from having an actual last individually carved for you if your foot is not particularly irregular in shape? And how does one know if one's foot is irregular enough to require bespoke?

On this note, is it possible that one's foot fits so well in an RTW last that it would be unnecessary or at least impractical to have a last adjusted or individually carved for you?

My understanding from reading old threads is that many old posters here pay for bespoke not primarily for fit, but to satisfy desires for unique styling. I understand that G&G, for example, sacrifices some comfort to maximize sleekness and styling. Thus, I wonder if my current concern is comfort over styling, I might ironically be best off with RTW, or perhaps MTO in the sense of slight adjustments to an RTW last.

Thank you for your thoughts, if you have experience with MTO or bespoke.

 

[dopey]

I can't comment with first hand knowledge on comparing the different methods of last making. I can speculate that in the hands of a skilled lastmaker, it shouldn't make much difference to the final result, as long as the lastmaker is willing to subtract as well as add to the form.

I will tell you that London made bespoke shoes (the only kinds I know) use leathers and construction that is superior to all RTW that I have encountered - that includes Vass, EG, Weston at the high end. The difference will be clear and obvious to you as the owner and wearer, though I doubt apparent to anyone else. Perhaps St. Crispin is of similar quality.

As to why bespoke - In my case, after a long history that I don't feel like recounting, my requirements can generally be met to my satisfaction by Alden. Except that the particular orthopedic last that I like cannot be used for an oxford shoe - bluchers only - and even then is available only in limited styles. Getting well fitting dress business shoes is the main remaining reason for bespoke for me at this point. But I am not a shoe freak. Alden quality and construction is good enough for me as long as the fit is there. But if you really want the best leather with the best construction or if having a specific design is important, you may need to go bespoke. It is certainly a superior product.

If you need bespoke for fit reasons, you will probably already know that. If you haven't had particular obvious problems with RTW already, I doubt you will find the better fit from bespoke to be much of an improvement.

 

[Bic Pentameter]

Originally Posted by londonboy

I am starting a new post after an exchange with Fabro regarding Koronya shoes.

My understanding, also from A Harris posts, is that Vass in Budapest does not offer actual bespoke, but adjusts existing RTW lasts. I have also seen posts from Tricker on Ask Andy's that sometimes a piece or two of cork added to an RTW last will suffice to give a bespoke quality fit, and this person claims to be a Northampton shoemaker or factory worker.

My understanding from Fabro, further, is that Koronya offers both this kind of MTO service and actual bespoke with individually carved lasts.

I doubt I will find a person, but has anyone actually had experience with both techniques? If so, is there a noticeable benefit from having an actual last individually carved for you if your foot is not particularly irregular in shape? And how does one know if one's foot is irregular enough to require bespoke?

On this note, is it possible that one's foot fits so well in an RTW last that it would be unnecessary or at least impractical to have a last adjusted or individually carved for you?

My understanding from reading old threads is that many old posters here pay for bespoke not primarily for fit, but to satisfy desires for unique styling. I understand that G&G, for example, sacrifices some comfort to maximize sleekness and styling. Thus, I wonder if my current concern is comfort over styling, I might ironically be best off with RTW, or perhaps MTO in the sense of slight adjustments to an RTW last.

Thank you for your thoughts, if you have experience with MTO or bespoke.

When I placed an order for a pair of Edward Green ready to wear shoes, they built up the height on a stock 7E last. You can see my post on the subject here: http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=10391

Later, to see what all of the fuss was about, I ordered a pair of boring bespoke black captoe oxfords from Edward Green. I am not certain how the last for my bespoken shoes was made. Practically, there are only two possiblities. Either something larger than the finished last was reduced in size until it became the finished last, or something smaller than the finished last was increased in size until it became the finished last. I am relatively confident that the last making process was more custom and less cookie cutter than the method used to make my first pair.

After having worn both pairs relatively regularly for the last three years, I have come to the conclusion that the modified made to order pair is more comfortable. So, I would answer your question in the affirmative. It is possible that one's foot could fit so well in a RTW last, or a slightly modified RTW last that it would be an unnecessary extravagance to have a last adjusted or individually carved for you. Unfortunately, this decision is not one you can make until you go down both roads yourself.

Bic

 

[londonboy]

Thank you for such a kind and well thought out post (both of you). Dopey, you make a good point that leather quality on one's shoes is more difficult to appreciate while you are actually wearing the shoes, unlike one's briefcase, wallet, business card holder, jacket, and even belt when dressed casually. Especially in the case of black shoes and except in the case of exotic leathers, one may as well just master the perfect shoe shine.

Speaking of construction, however, is it also a myth in your experience that bespoke shoes are lighter and this lightness is achieved by some RTW lines?

I suppose I shall simply have to pay the price of one bespoke order and see how I feel about my choices afterwards.

 

[Bic Pentameter]

My bespoke shoes are much lighter than my ready to wear shoes, and I have no doubt that the materials in the bespoken pair are of higher quality. Still, I find that I do not mind the heftiness of my ready to wear shoes. Of course, communication with the shoemaker is key. If the customer and the shoemaker are on the same wavelength, there is no reason why the shoemaker could not make heavy bespoke shoes. I suppose I simply lack the imagination to demand unique styling from a bespoke shoemaker, and am satisfied with the fit provided by properly sized ready to wear shoes.


Bic

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by londonboy

Thank you for such a kind and well thought out post. You make a good point that leather quality on one's shoes is more difficult to appreciate while you are actually wearing the shoes, unlike one's briefcase, wallet, business card holder, jacket, and even belt when dressed casually. Especially in the case of black shoes and except in the case of exotic leathers, one may as well just master the perfect shoe shine.

Speaking of construction, however, is it also a myth in your experience that bespoke shoes are lighter and this lightness is achieved by some RTW lines?

I suppose I shall simply have to pay the price of one bespoke order and see how I feel about my choices afterwards.

Not a myth, and was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned superior construction. I can't explain why the shoes feel different, but they do. Bespoke oxfords feel lighter and stronger than RTW, even, surprisingly, when compared to Vass ,which is reputed to use the same hand construction techniques. An analogy I made before is that it is like comparing stainless steel with cast iron. That is about the best I can do by way of description and I certainly do not know what would explain the difference. The best explanation I have seen is that bespoke, being made only for you, uses less material especially at the waist and welt width and is thus lighter. I have no idea how accurate that is. I have also read that the skins are of better quality and can thus be thinner yet still as strong or stronger. Again, I can't validate the claim.

I specified oxfords above, but because once you branch into other models, sole width, welting and other detailing make for a much more complicated comparison.

 

[bengal-stripe]

If anyone is really serious and wants to find out about lasts, they ought to read the standard work on all aspects of shoemaking: Golding which comes in eight volumes and was published in the 1930s:

Golding Vol. IV, This is a digitalization of volume IV of Golding's eight volume set. It consists of two sections written by different shoemaking authorities of the early 20th century. The first section, Lasting and Making, is a wide ranging exploration of different methods of making shoes. Hand lasting and bench methods are covered as are machinery, machine methods and small factory operations. The second section, The Fitting Up of Lasts, is is one of the most invaluable sections in the entire eight volume set. This section includes the discourse on Sabbage's Sectionizer, which, for those willing to delve into it, makes owning either a paper or digital copy almost mandatory. The digitalization is in .pdf format and requires that the reader have a copy (free) of Adobe Acrobat Reader on their computer. Golding's Volume IV may be downloaded at your pleasure and saved. Expect a download time of 35-45 minutes on dial up. If Golding opens up in your browser you may need to save it to your harddisk to access it later on.

You can download it here:
http://www.thehcc.org/ - go to "The Guild Library".

Here is a list of literature on shoemaking, that member "˜shoe fan' has compiled at AskAndy:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=37986

 

[DWFII]

Hey!!

I did that!! I don't mean that my name is Golding but I scanned and converted that into pdf to post to our homepage! Golding is probably the most comprehensive and authoritative work on shoemaking ever written (compiled) It's eight volumes and there are two volumes on the website and a third about halfway done.

The great thing about this version is that unlike a lot of pdf conversions all the text is "recognized." That means it's searchable and links exist from the TOC and index back to the relevant sections in the text.

I am really gratified to see that it's known outside of our small pond.

(Also wrote the intro quoted above)

 

[DWFII]

Londonboy,

See my post in that thread about Koronya shoes. It may answer some of your questions...or maybe not. But it does speak directly to the question implied in the subject of this thread.

 

[londonboy]

It was, thank you. I suppose I now wonder why there is a need to carve actual lasts today if a wide variety of premade lasts can now be purchased and modified. I would use the folds in a sevenfold tie as an analogy but I keep telling myself they make for a better drape.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by londonboy

It was, thank you. I suppose I now wonder why there is a need to carve actual lasts today if a wide variety of premade lasts can now be purchased and modified. I would use the folds in a sevenfold tie as an analogy but I keep telling myself they make for a better drape.
I think they do make for better drape, or at least a different feel (though only the wearer will notice).

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by londonboy

It was, thank you. I suppose I now wonder why there is a need to carve actual lasts today if a wide variety of premade lasts can now be purchased and modified. I would use the folds in a sevenfold tie as an analogy but I keep telling myself they make for a better drape.


A lot of makers wonder the same thing. At one point it time, not so long ago, Lobbs St. James was one of the very few that kept a last maker on the payroll and he was an old man...iconic and revered, as well as useful...but one wonders if he was kept on the payroll as some sort of sinecure.

Nowadays there seems to be a revival of that "art" (and it is an art) and that's all to the good from the standpoint of those of us who love the Trade. But one can't help wondering whether it's not something of a nostalgia or re-enactor's impulse.

As I said, I think that in the right hands it doesn't make a bit of difference. The "premade" last is just a chunk of wood (or plastic)...what is done with it is the issue. For example, what if a maker chooses a size 10E "premade" last and carves it down for a 7A customer? If the maker has a good eye and has taken careful measurements, who will say that the resulting "bespoke" last will be different, in any wise, to a last carved from an irregularly shaped chunk of hornbeam?

[Full disclosure: I don't hand carve lasts from scratch...although I wish I had the knowledge and tools to hand carve them, but more to refine my eye and my skill set, and as an option, than to rely on it as a preferred method. But you are perfectly welcome to take what I am saying with a small pinch of salt...if you feel the need.]