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'iGent Myths Busted!'

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by VRaivio, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    It is quite humorous, was not expecting it when I first read it.

    Agreed that it's more advanced reading though.

    Dressing the Man is great--haven't looked at Clothes and the Man though. Will have to pick it up one of these days.
     
  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Wait, what??? Is that where you reveal the ultimate evolution of CBD is polo-and-khaki-based business casual?
     
  3. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Sign me up for a pre-order.
     
  4. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    You missed that part?
     
  5. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    The question of whether something was accepted in the past is a much easiler question.

    Or, more specifically, a statement - sufficiently qualified - about something historical acceptability can be true or false.

    That is not a feature that statements about beauty / tastefulness / etc share.
     
  6. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    Manton and Foo should annotate an old Sears catalog. Perhaps that way the two fora might be reunited and peace restored.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Again, the lessons to be learned from history must be derived and interpreted, just as those from any other basis. We don't just copy what people did at a certain time. We pick and choose, and think about what to apply based on other considerations. As Sator's counter-examples show, you can always find something that was acceptable at one point that breaks any given rule, no matter how commonly accepted that rule is today.
     
  8. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

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    I'll have to dig out my old Isaiah Berlin book, reacquaint myself.


    Given this, who,would you recommend Dan Brown, Darth Strauss, Dr Seuss?
     
  9. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    The Flusser books are good. Those interested may be able to find something in the Books on Menswear thread in my sig.

    Also, I really recommend watching old movies if you're interested in fashions of the times. Obviously movies aren't completely representative of what real people wore, but you get an idea.

    I suggest His Girl Friday as a lot of it's set in an office. Be somewhat careful with Cary Grant's early years though, he did experiment quite a bit. I believe it was in The Awful Truth that he worse french cuffs on a button down shirt.

    All About Eve is another good one to watch, as it's got some lounge suit and tie dinner scenes, some black tie, and some white tie even. And some more casual tweed jacket/odd trouser type scenes. Also, it's got Marilyn Monroe in her first speaking part, if the rest isn't enough to grab you.
     
  10. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    The point you're making doesn't have any bearing on my point. And this particular confusion on your part is what leads to so much typing and so little denouement.

    So, assuming that you care about your carpal tunnels...

    What I'm saying is that, in order for a discussion to be even mildly worthwhile, you have to figure out what sort of discussion it is because that determines what types of arguments make sense.

    When Manton talks about history, he does so to demonstrate what was acceptable (with the implication that it has some bearing on what is / ought to be acceptable now). And those are the sorts of discussions where you can point to an established record and - more nearly - use words like correct / incorrect.

    When you talk about history, you do so merely as an illustration of preferences / opinions you hold for a-historical reasons. That's not the sort of thing that you can really argue. And it's misplaced to talk about your interpretation of what's good / bad as being factually accurate or not.


    Not that you care, but I agree with your approach and think that placing too great an emphasis on the weight of precendent leads to suboptimal results in most regards.

    I'm talking about how we should go about having the diferent sorts of discussions that quickly get all jumbled up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
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  11. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    What he does is worse than that. Often his "counter-proofs" are not things that were ever widely acceptable, just things done as one-offs that he cites as "proof" that the rule was always bunk. E.g., I love the old AA illustrations. Well, one famous one shows a DJ with brass buttons. Another shows white tie with patent leather brogues. I doubt either of those were even worn IRL. Or take the "mess jacket," which was a real fad in 1936 but flamed out within a year and was ridiculed even when it was worn. Worse, he often likes to pull examples from low-brow sources like andAmerican mail order catalouge showing a notch DJ to "prove" than on Savile Row there never was a tradition aganist notched DJs.

    But worst of all is his insistence that absense of his favored kind of evidence equals evidence of absense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  12. VRaivio

    VRaivio Senior member

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    I really wish they'd publish new editions of Esquire's Encyclopedia and Men In Style. I still haven't read the two and I'm sure both would sell well with proper marketing. The former would educate and work as reference, the latter would suit as eye candy inspiration.
     
  13. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

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    Quite a comprehensive list there.

    Nice to see Laver on it

    Chenoune is also good and bloody expensive too.
     
  14. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Notorious is excellent. Apart from the obvious (Grant), pay attention to the CIA brass for some State trad and the DB on the young Argentine intelligence operative (he just pops in for a minute).
     
  15. RSS

    RSS Senior member

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    The best thing about being my age is that I was a 'Gent' long before there was an 'i' .... before the 'i' was even a twinkle in Gore's eye.
     
  16. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Probably Men in Style might sell but the Encyclopedia, I have my doubts. It's a beast. I love it but it really is for the specialist.
     
  17. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You know what would be really good? If someone did a new, annotated Apparel Arts anthology. Another Men in Style.
     
  18. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I tried that, spent a year on it and then the publisher bailed. Too hard to get the rights.
     
  19. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That's too bad. You'd think they'd want to make money off those things rather than have them passed around the internet like saintly remains.
     
  20. RSS

    RSS Senior member

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    Sorry to hear they bailed. I'd certainly appreciate it.
     
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