'iGent Myths Busted!'

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by VRaivio, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Jewfro Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    

    This is a bad example IMHO. From what I have seen of him, he is VERY aware of what context he is dressing in and what styles he is borrowing from. He knows the entire vocabulary of menswear.
     


  2. mktitsworth

    mktitsworth Senior member

    Messages:
    2,834
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    


    Here is an example. More can be found by googling him.
    [​IMG]
     


  3. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Jewfro Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    

    You're misunderstanding what (at least I) am saying. Style is not about dressing in a specific way at all times. It's exactly wearing the right thing for the occasion.
     


  4. UncleCozy

    UncleCozy Senior member

    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    34
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Location:
    Sweden
    

    As said above, LabelKing, Lapo, Barims, Butler - the likes, people who really have a sense of personal style. Who owe up to it, not just dandying/peacocking about with silly colours. The ones who are lightyears ahead of style in the sense #menswear define style/rules.

    Not fashion per se, but the tip of the style community.
     


  5. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

    Messages:
    269
    Likes Received:
    33
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Is this the guy?

    This isn't style its pastiche.

    [​IMG]
     


  6. mktitsworth

    mktitsworth Senior member

    Messages:
    2,834
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    


    I don't disagree with either of these statements. However, the question was one of whether or not you can be successful at ignoring the rules. I generally consider ignoring to be a matter of intent - a conscious action. From what I've seen of LabelKing, I would agree that he is fully versed in the language, but that he is indifferent to it as it pertains to what he may want to wear. A sort of sociopathy versus psychopathy if you will.
     


  7. cosmic

    cosmic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Wearing an impeccable double-breasted pin-stripe Savile Row suit and tie while getting drunk at a dive bar at a biker meet in Sturgis. Wearing African ceremonial tribal dress to a top level UN meeting where everyone else is in suits and ties.

    Your outfits could be the height of fit and style, yet they are totally flouting the social norms. The strangeness of this is therefore nothing whatsoever to do with the inherent style of the outfits, it is all about how they clash with what is considered normal or appropriate. Thus what is correct, or at least acceptable, is nothing whatsoever to do with inherent style - it is all about habits, fashion, expectations, manners, propriety and so on.

    Someone who knows how to play the game, knows how to dress stylishly, but also how to deviate a bit from the norms - but not too much. If you deviate too much then you are considered to be either i) deliberately flouting the rules to make a point ii) clueless about the rules. Yet it's quite possible you are doing neither - maybe you just like Savile Row suits, and don't see why you should refuse to wear one just because everyone else in the area is in denim and leathers.

    It just shows how much of this is to do with other people's expectations and demands for conformity. Only some of it is to do with the objective style of what you wear.

    So, imagine a person who simply wears things that look good, and is utterly indifferent to appropriateness, conformity, or fitting in. Either the style of their outfit goes from bad to amazing depending purely on what other people around them are doing (which is in one sense impossible, since the outfit is unchanged), or appropriateness has nothing to do with style.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013


  8. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

    Messages:
    269
    Likes Received:
    33
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    

    You missed the obvious one. Wearing a SR flannel suit and a bowler hat whilst posing with a Thompson machine gun.

    Come on.
     


  9. Fuuma

    Fuuma Franchouillard Modasse

    Messages:
    25,918
    Likes Received:
    10,528
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    

    Or maybe style is fashion and it isn't universal? You're located in a particular time, a particular place, a particular context and so is everyone that was and will be, even if you're judging Masai warrior X to be "stylish", you are doing so from your particular place, context and time, not the one of the Masai himself or another member of his tribe. I'm keeping it simple but having both some Masai liking the outfit worn by his fellow tribesman when they were roaming Tanganyika and you liking a gravure you saw five minutes ago doesn't bring any universalism in play.

    This isn't really important though, what a lot of "conservative" MCers are doing is merely looking at specific traditional rules of certain periods and adapting them to their own modern usage, something extremely specific and which doesn't require any claim to universality to succeed on it own terms.
     


  10. cosmic

    cosmic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    One other point about rules. What do you normally do when you know a rule, but then see an exception that clearly works? If following a rule would get a worse result than breaking it, then it is silly to follow the rule. Rules are there for a purpose, after all - what matters is to achieve the desired goals for which the rules are designed, not to follow rules mindlessly for the sake of it.

    So, when breaking a rule would achieve those goals better than following the rule - go ahead and break it. If an outfit, that breaks one or more rules, still manages to look great - don't be afraid to wear is just because some general principle is being violated. However, many principles have a sound foundation, that is why they were accepted in the first place - so think carefully whether the rule-breaking does actually make sense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013


  11. cosmic

    cosmic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    LOL, I deserve to be damned for eternity for missing that :D

    Although you could argue that Churchill was sending up the whole 'gangsters with pin-stripes' fad from the 30s - and showing them how to do it properly!
     


  12. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Jewfro Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Think of it as language. Many great writers have written grammatically incorrect sentences. But they do it on purpose, to achieve a particular effect. They don't just do it to prove that they will not get arrested or the world will not end if they split an infinitive (a silly grammatical rule in English).

    Most writers would be well advised not to break any rules, or do so very rarely. They are only confusing themselves and their readers.
     


  13. topos

    topos Senior member

    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    27
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    These 'rules' of yours are too general to be of any use. I'm not trying to pick on you in particular here, since I imagine you were being a bit facetious anyways with your post. A list of rules ('rule' is a terrible word, so let's just agree to call them 'guidelines') ought to have consequences that exist independent of the person applying them. Its usefulness should be measured by the frequency with which it gives a 'correct' choice. Of course this is subjective, but that isn't the point. 'Correctness' stands to be judged by your version of correctness, so your guideline is useful if it is something you can blindly apply in any given situation and be correct a high percentage of the time.

    For instance, say your 'guideline' is 'own a lot of plain light blue shirts', or maybe 'wear a lot of plain light blue shirts'. The blind application is to just decide to wear a light blue shirt tie/coat/pants be damned. If this turns out to be the 'right' choice most of the time, then this is a useful rule for you. It becomes useful to then share it with others, but in the context of your wardrobe. This wouldn't be a useful rule to, say, someone who runs a funeral home and I imagine to wear a white shirt black suit every day. But there are enough common contexts for these guidelines to be applicable to a wide range of people, hence their usefulness to a wider audience.
     


  14. cosmic

    cosmic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    I think the evidence is pretty strong that some elements of aesthetics are universal amongst humans. Almost no one finds a lopsided, wart-ridden face to be beautiful, no matter what culture or era they are from. Symmetry in members of the opposite sex is almost universally preferred.

    My opinion of Masai style in general will be dependent on a combination of my inherent (biologically/genetically created) aesthetic taste, my cultural programming, and how much I can break free of the latter. But my opinion of which looks within the Masai style are better (i.e. best-dressed Masai vs most unstylish Masai) will be driven by more universal aesthetic principles. It is very unlikely that I would think Masai X is a horrible dresser, and the Masai themselves would rate him as the most stylish.

    As for adapting rules - some people do try to claim universality to what are nothing more than traditions or even fads, and demand that others follow them. There are numerous examples of that on this forum and others.

    Also, if one seeks to update a previous look without abandoning it, wouldn't this work better if one had a good appreciation of what universal principles exist? Any update, or an individual take on a given style, is more likely to be successful if the fit is good, the colours are harmonious, the patterns aren't jarring to the eye, quality materials are used, the history and reasons for a given style are understood, some attention is paid to how appropriate it will be, and so on. Knowing the universals of style helps to better implement any given variant.
     


  15. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    6,898
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    I think you hit the nail on the head. I was having a discussion with someone who didn't understand "who wrote the "rules" anyway???" and I said pretty much the same thing. They aren't really "rules" at all. They are a set of social norms and accepted practices. To conform to them is to accept a certain American/British/French-ness, or wherever you happen to be from. I speaks about the society you come from. To give that up is to give up a part of your identity as an American/Brit/Frenchman. Anyway, at least that's how I see it. Then again, sometimes I completely murder my fits, so whatever. lol
     


Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by