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I want a high bhp/litre ratio engine damn it!

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by imageWIS, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. briancl

    briancl Senior member

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    I think Clarkston in Top Gear said it needs service every 4,000 miles, particularly the turbo. It is indeed not a very practical car, but it is a perfectly street legal production vehicle, STOCK! I can't think of any other street legal, stock, straight from the factory, kind of cars that will give you this kind of bhp/litre bang for the buck.

    Ya, it needs an oil change every 4,000 miles. That engine is really not that over the top. The 4G63 block is a workhorse and has been for the 15 years it's been used by mistu. In the aftermarket, that 2.0 liter can easily make upwards of 500 hp with some somewhat basic boltons. After that, you can get creative and power and torque is limitless. Cast iron blocks with 15+ years of tuner experience yeild great results.

    I think the next gen evo, which will share one of the world platforms (probably the same 2.4 liter in the caliber) is a step backwards for the evo.

    Also, the S2000 increased displacement a couple years ago.. its now a 2.2 liter. The HP stayed the same, but torque increased. Honda was catching flack over the lack of low end grunt... a shame, really, as the car was perfectly balanced and tuned.

    I'm making about 140hp/liter on pump gas, but I've got forced induction on my side..
     
  2. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    That EVO is really snazzy looking. It's quite a bit sleeker than the boxier IV-VIII. Looks almost GT-Rish to me. But damn.. 4 mpg? [​IMG]
    Yeah, 4 mpg is pretty shitty for a 400 bhp engine. After all, the Veyron gets 4 mpg, but it has 1000 bhp… Jon.
     
  3. chrysalid

    chrysalid Senior member

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    high output/litre engines are appealing because they need incredibly fine engineering to produce them. while i like fat cubic inch american v8s, they are, for better or worse, truck engines.

    i think the honda s2000 has the best, but it is supposed to be a bit low in torque. honda have been doing this for years, their s800 back in the 60s revved to about 8.5k rpm, amazing for a production car back then. i see soichiro honda as being the japanese colin chapman.

    from my limited knowledge i think the prev. gen. m3 has one of the most effective n/a high output engines with 333 bhp (i think) out of 3.2l and enough torque to haul a saloon bodied car laden with gizmos with no problems at all. in fact the m3 csl gets more bhp out of the same engine i think.

    the lotus exige pushes 190bhp out of 1800cc, but it's fly weight.

    about beemer going to turbo, they were one of the first manufacturers to release a turbo'd prod. car - 2002 ti i think - along with saab and chevrolet, with chevrolet just being the first (if i remember correctly)
     
  4. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    BMW is going turbo because they can get a lower liter engine to produce just as much or more horsepower than a NA engine, while at the same time, getting better MPG than a NA. Plus, with the correct amount of piping and design, you can get rid of turbo lag. Especially if you use two small turbos like BMW is using in the 335i engine.

    Jon.
     
  5. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

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    I am curious to see if the VW supercharger/turbocharger experiment will net anything interesting. But my choice on that would be this old fogey, the Lancia Delta S4. Talk of a monster... 1.8 litres, 460 bhp, http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/s4_new.htm
     
  6. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

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  7. SGladwell

    SGladwell Senior member

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    Also, the S2000 increased displacement a couple years ago.. its now a 2.2 liter. The HP stayed the same, but torque increased. Honda was catching flack over the lack of low end grunt... a shame, really, as the car was perfectly balanced and tuned.
    Huh? A car designed to burn off huge chunks of clutch just because someone dares to try to pull away from a stoplight on a hill is hardly "perfectly balanced". Because it's such a damn pig - 2800lbs, almost as much as GM's Solstice! - the S2000 just plain needed more low-end torque then its original engine was tuned to give. Beyond that, I don't like the hp/L metric. What would be far more interesting a set of metrics to me are hp/lb (including ancillaries) and lb-ft/lb. Or, if you prefer, kW/kg and Nm/kg. That's still on paper - an an engine that looks great on paper but is a lumpy, bad-sounding wretch to drive still sucks - but at least it measures something of direct and obvious relevance in tying power to mass. My current car, with 160hp or so from a blown 1.6 I4, does well on that metric, but more poorly on my favored metric because of its iron block and iron blower casing. Ironically, some of the GM pushrod designs would look better than they do under hp/L measurements. Hopefully the engine in that drop dead sexy Fiat Abarth concept above would do better than the Chrysler lump in my BMW-made British-branded car...
     
  8. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Motocross bikes can be up there too. The 193 ccm motor in my KTM 200sx, with motor work, puts out appx. 44 horsepower, that's appx 228 HP/L !! And the bike weighs just under 210 lbs dry, 225lbs gassed up. [​IMG] I'd need to pump my WRX up to 460HP to hit that ratio.

    Maybe you need a 2-stroke car engine [​IMG]
     
  9. swiego

    swiego Senior member

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    Huh? A car designed to burn off huge chunks of clutch just because someone dares to try to pull away from a stoplight on a hill is hardly "perfectly balanced". Because it's such a damn pig - 2800lbs, almost as much as GM's Solstice! - the S2000 just plain needed more low-end torque then its original engine was tuned to give.

    The S2000 is the wrong car for stoplight drag-racing if that's your thing. I'm on my second one (2000 lease, then a 2004 I bought) and have tried both engines. I have enjoyed both. The original hit the 120hp/L with a redline just short of 9,000rpm. Power was there but you had to be in VTEC (6000rpm) to feel it, and the high engine revs at highway speeds in 6th made the car drone a bit. The '04 model's 2.2L engine has noticably more torque so that you feel "good" passing power around 4K rpm, however the redline is nearly 1,000rpm lower so the rush doesn't last *quite* as long. Mine's a daily driver (65K miles already on the '04) so the extra torque for day-to-day use is welcomed.

    I agree that the S2000 is a somewhat heavy car. I think it's a stretch to compare it to the GM cars - those are a lot heavier with weaker bodies and a lot less power. And compared to most other contemporary roadsters (SLK, 350Z cabrio, crossfire cabrio, Z4, etc.) it's actually very light. The Boxster is much more competitive (similar weight, more stuff) but costs $20K more. It's the Miata that makes the S2000 look like a "pig" - the Miata really is something special, considering what you get (driving experience) for the price. However, having come from a Miata before the S2K, I can say that the S2000 feels like a much bigger car. I barely fit in the Miata, but I do have a little wiggle room in the S2000.

    Sorry to chime in on a dead post but I do think the S2000 is a fantastic car and it's a real surprise to me that nobody's buying it anymore. It's the same thing that happened to its immediate predecessor in Honda's "sporty car" lineup, the Honda Prelude; the 5th gen Prelude was arguably the best-handling FWD vehicle ever made, the only one I could actually *throttle oversteer* around a bend. It was built as good as any Lexus, had plenty of power, and was filled with real sports car DNA, but nobody bought it. The S2000, amidst Xfires and Zs and Z4s alike, is suffering a similar fate. If you want the motorbike-on-4-wheels effect better act fast, '07 is slated to be the last year for the S2000. '06 models can be had for not much more than invoice.
     
  10. DNW

    DNW Senior member

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    It was built as good as any Lexus, had plenty of power, and was filled with real sports car DNA, but nobody bought it.
    Overstating things a bit, aren't we? The only thing that's built like a Lexus is, well, a Lexus. There isn't any other car manufacturer out there with the same level of quality control. I knew someone who had a Prelude SH, and while it was well built, it was hardly a...Toyota.
     
  11. SGladwell

    SGladwell Senior member

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    The S2000 is the wrong car for stoplight drag-racing if that's your thing.

    The grunt off the line isn't my problem so much as the degree of clutch slip required to get moving at a sedate pace from a stop on any inclined surface. (2.0 model.) Honda's full of world's best engineers, so they probably designed the clutch to cope, but I still am uncomfortable with it. I'm curious, have you needed to replace your S2000's clutch yet?

    It's the Miata that makes the S2000 look like a "pig" - the Miata really is something special, considering what you get (driving experience) for the price.

    Indeed. That is my reference. I started driving on a Miata (1994LE) and recently ditched my Anglo-German hatch for another one (2001SE).

    I barely fit in the Miata, but I do have a little wiggle room in the S2000.

    One man's "barely fit" is another's "fits like a glove", I guess. I think I'm at the upper bound of people who can fit in a Miata (6'1", 34" inseam, 35 sleeve length) and I love love love the feeling of driving a car that fits me like an Anderson & Sheppard bespoke jacket again. Except for the footbox, which is a little tight so I generally keep a pair of driving mocs in the car to spare my nicer shoes. Also, with passengers I have to be more careful about the elbow on the shifting arm.

    It's the same thing that happened to its immediate predecessor in Honda's "sporty car" lineup, the Honda Prelude; the 5th gen Prelude was arguably the best-handling FWD vehicle ever made, the only one I could actually *throttle oversteer* around a bend. It was built as good as any Lexus, had plenty of power, and was filled with real sports car DNA, but nobody bought it.

    It was also rather ugly, if I recall, compared to the swoopy-but-bland 4th gen.
     
  12. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    Overstating things a bit, aren't we? The only thing that's built like a Lexus is, well, a Lexus. There isn't any other car manufacturer out there with the same level of quality control. I knew someone who had a Prelude SH, and while it was well built, it was hardly a...Toyota.

    I don't think this is correct. In my experience, Honda-built cars are just as well-made and quality controlled as Toyota (referring to both Honda and Acuras). Some statistics showed that they have nearly identical reliability as well, with Toyota, Honda, Acura, Lexus (in that order) all within 1% of each other for reported problems within the first year of ownership. I love both Hondas and Toyotas, so color me un-biased, please. [​IMG]
     
  13. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

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    I agree with Brian regarding quality and reliability. At the easily attainable car level, my late 98 Civic coupe was very nicely put together and tough as nails. My current car, a 2000 Toyota Celica seems just as well put together other than the fact that the plastics inside are not as nice as the Honda's. But they both have high revving engines and are good drives.

    As for the Miata, I was seriously going to buy one instead of the Celica. I love the things and I agree with the well-fitting suit assertion. Very nice. The only reason I did not buy one is the fact that the boot was not wide enough to fit my martial arts equipment (even the 2nd generation) [​IMG]
     
  14. DNW

    DNW Senior member

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    Reported problems in the first year of ownership (a benchmark used by JD Powers for their annual surveys), while meaningful for reliability comparisons, is not a very useful statistic to indicate the level of craftsmanship. There is obviously a huge difference in ride, ambiance, and fit & finish between a Honda and Lexus. An Acura is a closer comparison, but if you notice the details, an Acura RL is not comparable to a Lexus LS 430 or even a GS 430. The LS 430, IMO, is one of the very best money can buy in terms of quality. It belongs in the same league of cars costing 2-3 times as much. If I remembered correctly, a recent JD Powers survey showed that Lexus customers are the most happy customers than any other brand's. Now a Toyota, while being a very reliable car, is still no Lexus.

    The above opinion comes from a Bimmer head, who has never owned a Lexus but has driven most of the recent models. A Lexus lacks a soul, but it has everything else.
     
  15. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    The above opinion comes from a Bimmer head, who has never owned a Lexus but has driven most of the recent models. A Lexus lacks a soul, but it has everything else.


    I agree. Unfortunately, Bimmer has a soul, but lacks looks (now).

    Jon.
     
  16. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    Reported problems in the first year of ownership (a benchmark used by JD Powers for their annual surveys), while meaningful for reliability comparisons, is not a very useful statistic to indicate the level of craftsmanship. There is obviously a huge difference in ride, ambiance, and fit & finish between a Honda and Lexus. An Acura is a closer comparison, but if you notice the details, an Acura RL is not comparable to a Lexus LS 430 or even a GS 430. The LS 430, IMO, is one of the very best money can buy in terms of quality. It belongs in the same league of cars costing 2-3 times as much. If I remembered correctly, a recent JD Powers survey showed that Lexus customers are the most happy customers than any other brand's. Now a Toyota, while being a very reliable car, is still no Lexus.

    The above opinion comes from a Bimmer head, who has never owned a Lexus but has driven most of the recent models. A Lexus lacks a soul, but it has everything else.


    I see what you're saying. I thought we were comparing Acura <-> Lexus and Honda <-> Toyota. In which case I still maintain that the difference is marginal in crafstmanship, though I would agree that Lexus has more style than Acura.
     
  17. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    What about Infiniti?
     
  18. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    What about Infiniti?

    I'd rather have a Nissan [​IMG]
     
  19. briancl

    briancl Senior member

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    Ignore the car (its a pig), but look at the engine. They lowered displacement, added technology, and made more power! What an idea! Way to go GM. Let's see more of this trend..

    Of course, they left off Direct Injection...

    http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshow...lac-xlr-v.html
     
  20. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    a pig indeed.
     

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