Read more. Between SF and Sufu, any approved denim that can be had in the US has sizing information. I don't know what you're talking about with KMW and Crate.... KMW stretches to 1 size up, Crate starts 1 size down, probably stretches to size, although I've never done more than try a pair on. You either don't know how to measure yourself correctly or aren't looking at the sizing info. Good point, but the rant is really about studying the sizing info carefully and taking it as a real guideline. I know my sizes almost perfectly by trial and error. Unfortunately it doesn't help when I get a sanforized denim that is tagged 29, on the size chart as 30" measured, then is 31" (new) when I get it. That doesn't include stretch. Also doesn't help when I order PBJ marked as shrinking to 31" and it's 32.5" after a scalding hot 1/2 hour soak, with a 8.5" leg opening when it was supposed to be 7.75". They've been hemmed and hot soaked. I can't return/exchange them. What recourse do I have when I can't even believe the charts? Take a 50% loss and sell them? Repeat this over and over? Just griping here. I've already learned the hard way too many times now, but even days of homework don't pay sometimes.