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How we remember Shoa and other atrocities

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by romafan, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    The Emperor in the East was not the "Holy Roman Emperor" (which is somewhat beside the point), and while they did have religious authority, it wasn't the same as in the caliph: there was still a separate institution (the Church) that represented religion.

    I don't even know why we're discussing this though :(
     
  2. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    the "middle east" is an area that is far wider than the continental US, and frankly might cover more territory, I am not sure. when Mohamed made his first migration, what is now known as the ME included several cultures, maybe 10-15 distict cultural and racial groups, from berbers to nubians to persian etc. the arabs came out of arabia and conquered the rest of the territory. if you want to look out of the ME, of course they poured into parts of eastern and western europe as well.

    that doens't make them evil, or differnt from other empires, but being that it is a religion, it does give good justification for people to have been scared of islam, and it does give perfectly good justificaiton for the wars that followed.

    when the spanish catholics persecuted muslims, or the balkan orthodox, or even the french catholics, it wasn't because they thought that they drank the blood of children, it was because they had good reason to fear them and consider them enimies.

    sorry, I don't think so. how many books about this period/colllege courses have you read/taken? not knowing something isn't something to be embarressed about, not wanting to learn is.


    in niether case were they the pope, they were effectivly secular leaders that took a religious tittle for political purposes.

    and I am not faulting Islam, I am pointing out the diffence.

    for most of the existance of islam, islamophobia wasn't irrational - it was no more irrational that a western african being scared of slavers or for a muslim in the balkans to be scared of "romans" - these were perfectly reasonable enemies to be scared of
     
  3. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I think of it as almost magical thinking, because on the one hand you are talking about science, on the other hand you have to discount a lot of real science.
     
  4. NorCal

    NorCal Senior member

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    im really not. just trust me on that.
     
  5. NorCal

    NorCal Senior member

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    More than a few.

    Honestly, beside your assumptions, where are my facts wrong? All I said was that Islam was native to the ME, for some reason you took that to mean that I believed that Islam was native to the entire ME as well as the rest of N.Africa, the Horn of Africa and so on.

    I'm not even sure why you're making a lot of these points and what there relevance is. For example the fact that Egyptians before the Arab expansion had an ethnic population that was not majority Arab? OK, why is that relevant? It only is if somebody claimed that the Arabs- and Islam-had always been there as a majority, but no one did.

    I guess you could claim I'm wrong about the role of religion in the expansion, but all I've pointed out is that the close relationship between politics and religion up to and including leaders holding dual roles is not unique to Islam.
     
  6. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    norcal, you walked into the middle of a conversation. yes, what you said was factually correct, and, yes, you said that lasbar was being an idiot, but your timing wasn't good - it seemed to inply something that perhaps you wern't trying to imply

    it comes down to a simple point - it was suggested that islamophobia is similar, or identical to, anti-semitism. for most of the past 1500 years, islomophobia was a perfectly rational fear for much of the world. islam didn't just represent a religion, it represented a fience enemy, not just in the sense that the enemy happened to worship under the religion of islam, but that the very organization, the very religion of islam itself was an enemy of a lot of people, and to be feared.

    yes, you are right. women masterbate, just saying that women and men masterbate the same amount would be a falicy. there have been a few examples in the west (and in other parts of the world) where leaders have held the same dual roles as they did in islam, but those are specific examples that are few and far between.

    jesus specifically seperated church and state, mohamed specifially cemented them (frankly, in the torah, church and state were attached, in the talmud they were later seperated).
     
  7. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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  8. lasbar

    lasbar Senior member

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    My argument is not absurb at all..

    How can the Crusades nearly a 1000 years ago and not 600, were not ethnic cleansing and massacres?

    And the partition of India have seen periods of massive ethnic cleansing of Muslims and they're very well documented...

    The Indian partition was a political mess and thousands of people lost their lives..

    Bosnia ,the reconquista, the French invasion of Algeria, British rules in Middle East have seen massive displacements of population and certain degree of ethnic cleansing ,Muslim being displaced in China or recently killed in Burma.

    Studying history is forcing people to think outside the box and our personal belief..

    There are historical facts...

    There is no bad or good ethnic cleansing such.

    Darfour, the Boer war or Cromwell wiping 20% of the Irish population and replacing them by Protestant settlers and many others are all tragedies..

    I'm not a Muslim apologist ,au contraire..

    The point I was making is I can see in the future , in a different set of economical and political settings certain anti -islams episodes happening in Western Europe..

    If you were au fait with European politics ,you will be surprised by the emergence of political parties all around Europe ,BNP,Front Nationl ,New Dawn and so on ,having repatriation of the Muslims population as an agenda..

    I made my point in a clumsy manner .

    Sometimes your hatred of me is blinding your judgement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Senior member

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    lasbar, I don't hate you - in fact quite the opposite - and I was having a hard time reconciling your argument. No hate, but I just wasn't seeing it.
     
  10. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    no, I'm getting there. I am certainly not feeling any love.
     
  11. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    lasbar, you're jsut babling crap, sorry, I'm not going to waste any more time with your stuff. if you can't see the difference between shit and shinola, I have no time for you.
     
  12. lasbar

    lasbar Senior member

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    The point I was making anyway was irrelevant and idiotic in front of such atrocities as the Shoah...
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. FLMountainMan

    FLMountainMan Senior member

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    Ah yes, the great Lasbar persecution conspiracy. Me and my minions at work again. Everyone who disagrees with you (i.e. every other poster in this thread) must be one of my minions.

    I'm done arguing with you. Almost all your points are flat-out wrong. You claim I'm ignorant of European politics, yet you cite BNP (4,200 members and falling, 28 seats, 2 seats in the Euro Parliament), National Front (2 of 577 seats in the national assembly, none in the Senate, 3 seats in the Euro Parliament), and New Dawn (I'm assuming you mean Golden Dawn? or do you mean the British New Dawn that has virtually no presence) as evidence of a growing movement to evict Muslims. Which is somehow the same as the Holocaust. You might as well claim that America is becoming Muslim because Keith Ellison and a guy with the middle name of Hussein were elected.

    Let's just stop arguing. We're shitting up a Holocaust thread, for G-d's sake.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  14. Rambo

    Rambo Senior member

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    i found this hilarious for some reason
     
  15. lasbar

    lasbar Senior member

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    Everytime I 'm writing anything on any subject , you are coming with some derogatory comments...

    Even on frigging Law and Order...


    Just ignore me the same way i'm ignoring you..

    What do you know apart European right wing European politics expect Wikipedia articles?

    The numbers of deputes or MP is definitively not a great barometer of Isl amophobia or Antisemitism in Europe especially with most European electoral system


    UKIP the anti-European party has no MPs and still half the British people want to leave the EU...

    And you're a moderator...
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  16. Patrologia

    Patrologia Senior member

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    This

    (with no hate directed at anyone)
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. FLMountainMan

    FLMountainMan Senior member

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    It looks as if my minions are working overtime.

    About Holocaust Museums - how long do you think they'll be able to focus exclusively on the Holocaust? I think they have an advantage in the wealth base of their target constituency, but I think at some point they'll probably expand their scope to focus on genocide against other peoples, if they don't already. I think that's unfortunate, but probably unavoidable. The Holocaust is unique - probably the last genocide conducted by a First World country's government. (At least until the anti-Arab pogroms begin in Europe :rolleyes:)
     
  18. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    the Chicagoland one is great. the permenant exhibit is about the shoah, then about 1/3 of hte facility is used for other exhibits - they have done a great one on bullying, on the japanese internment, on cross-cultural relations in the US (including, by the way, muslims) and other things. I think that is an excellent balance - nobody would come in for the exhibit on bullying, but you bring in school kids and you get their attention and then you can use that as a relvant evil.


    the biggest trouble with these museums is that its imposible to sink in in one visit, and even I can't say it's justifiied to bring american school kids to a holocust museum every year, so you have to find the right balance for the kids to"get" it.
     
  19. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    as an aside, I have taken my kids to things assosiated with the slave trade, and intend to take them to one of the big slave trade sites in africa when they are older, and we have introduced them to a few other major "attrocities", inlcuding taking them to the American Indian museum and explaining to them about the wars and killings of indians. its important to educate about a lot of different things.
     
  20. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I used to say "no, really we don't" but they didn't believe me. now I just wink...
     

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