How we remember Shoa and other atrocities

[Patrologia]



this is what struck me - w/in my lifetime this is going form 'lived' memory to 'historical' memory. it is just unbelievable how the passage of time can erase so monumental an evil. for kids in israel think of the holocaust as another story or chapter in the history of their people ("like the Exodus from Egypt"!) just blows my mind....

I read that somewhat differently. The Exodus is a formative event - it defines who Israel is throughout the Hebrew Bible, and it defines their relationship with God (he is the one who "brought you out of the land of Egypt"). Egypt continues for centuries, even millenia, as a byword for "everything bad."

I think to say that the Shoa is viewed in the same way is a pretty accurate and very powerful way of saying that this event was so profound that it actually takes the place (in part) of the Exodus as a/the formative event in the history and more importantly the identity of Israel.

(Boy am I glad I started following the Moderation thread - and to think I just wanted to know the gossip when somebody got banned or TO'd!)

 

[dopey]



I read that somewhat differently. The Exodus is a formative event - it defines who Israel is throughout the Hebrew Bible, and it defines their relationship with God (he is the one who "brought you out of the land of Egypt"). Egypt continues for centuries, even millenia, as a byword for "everything bad."
I think to say that the Shoa is viewed in the same way is a pretty accurate and very powerful way of saying that this event was so profound that it actually takes the place (in part) of the Exodus as a/the formative event in the history and more importantly the identity of Israel.
(Boy am I glad I started following the Moderation thread - and to think I just wanted to know the gossip when somebody got banned or TO'd!)

Keep in mind that the Shoa is not at all personally relevant for a huge portion of world Jewry (and about 50% of Israeli Jews) - the Sephardic Jews were largely unaffected (not entirely unaffected, but not in as cataclysmic a way). The Exodus is part of the myth of the entire people - the Shoa is more limited, though more immediate. On the other hand, for many American Jews and Jewish Schools, the Holocaust is a huge and perhaps primary part of their Jewish identity.

 

[in stitches]

very interesting points guys. i never thought of it that way.

the saddest thing is, for every moment we get further away from the holocaust, and for every witness we lose, there is another person that uses the time gap, to deny anything happened at all.

 

[Manton]



Keep in mind that the Shoa is not at all personally relevant for a huge portion of world Jewry (and about 50% of Israeli Jews) - the Sephardic Jews were largely unaffected (not entirely unaffected, but not in as cataclysmic a way). The Exodus is part of the myth of the entire people - the Shoa is more limited, though more immediate. On the other hand, for many American Jews and Jewish Schools, the Holocaust is a huge and perhaps primary part of their Jewish identity.

This is a major problem if you ask me. Which you didn't.

 

[in stitches]



Keep in mind that the Shoa is not at all personally relevant for a huge portion of world Jewry (and about 50% of Israeli Jews) - the Sephardic Jews were largely unaffected (not entirely unaffected, but not in as cataclysmic a way). The Exodus is part of the myth of the entire people - the Shoa is more limited, though more immediate. On the other hand, for many American Jews and Jewish Schools, the Holocaust is a huge and perhaps primary part of their Jewish identity.

OTT, the spanish inquisition may be something that community is more in touch with, than those of european decent are.

also, i would personally not use the word "myth" regarding the exodus.

 

[in stitches]



This is a major problem if you ask me. Which you didn't.

please to elaborate. i am actually not disagreeing necessarily. i am just curious why you say that. as i wonder if we have different reason to think the same thing, possibly because we approach it from different POVs.

 

[Manton]



very interesting points guys. i never thought of it that way.
the saddest thing is, for every moment we get further away from the holocaust, and for every witness we lose, there is another person that uses the time gap, to deny anything happened at all.

There really aren't that many deniers, to be honest, virtually all of them are in Muslim tyrannies or soon to be tyrannies, outside those realms they have no influence at all.

 

[dopey]



This is a major problem if you ask me. Which you didn't.

I agree.
My kids' school, which is a Jewish School but pointedly NOT a Yeshivah Day School is really into the Holocaust and has all sorts of programming about it. I am mostly uninterested in the Holocaust. Horrified, but uninterested. My wife is more connected because her father was a survivor and she grew up around lots of survivors. She takes my kids to an all night "reading of the names" of the murdered (it is staggering, they can only cover one region or large city a year).

 

[dopey]



OTT, the spanish inquisition may be something that community is more in touch with, than those of european decent are.
also, i would personally not use the word "myth" regarding the exodus.

If it makes you feel better, I was using the word in the academic sense - an important, shared story that binds a group together and gives it identity. In that context, historical truth or non-truth is really irrelevant. What matters is that the story is shared and used to create identity.

re the Inquisition, think how much the trauma of the murders during the Crusades has passed. Do you ever get upset about it? Yet it was so horrific that memories of it entered the liturgy in many places, even the Kin'os. That is barely happening yet, if at all, for the Holocaust (in the Orthodox community(.

 

[FLMountainMan]



There really aren't that many deniers, to be honest, virtually all of them are in Muslim tyrannies or soon to be tyrannies, outside those realms they have no influence at all.

Sadly, I've met two young, otherwise quite pleasant, people who doubt the Holocaust and try to minimize it. Pretty awful. A third insinuates they brought it on themselves. I mention it literally everytime I see them to try to shame them. I live in a pretty liberal town (called the "Berkeley of the South" at one point) and it's still a small sample but I wouldn't be surprised if the Holocaust gets the revisionist treatment at some point in our lives.

 

[Manton]

I am actually very interested in it and learned alot about it. But I think the way it is taught and studied now is debilitating to the psyche of the Jews.

The Israelis kind of have the right idea--I remember when I was important and I got some briefings at IDF HQ, one of the briefers had a photo of an F-16 squadron over Auchwitz in his office. That's a very effective picture and also motivating him in the right way.

The way it works on Americans is not so good, IMO. I recall--and I have discussed this with Matt--a really heated exchange I once had with EL72, who no longer posts here, and his point was that even though he lives in and enjoys the bounties of North American Anglo-Saxon civilization, he has zero trust for the entire West, feels no loyalty to Canda at all, takes for granted that the US and Canada (gentle Canada!) will sell out and even harm the Jews in heartbeat, and so on.

That was an extreme case no doubt but I have encountered much like it over the years. In a way it reminds me of how the ChiComs have a raised two successive generations who hate Japan with a passion and can tell you every detail about the **** of Nanking but know very little else about their own history.

 

[foodguy]

this is an interesting discussion. my daughter went to school with many cambodian kids whose parents had been through the killing fields. there really was nothing in that culture that encouraged any kind of remembering or memorializing and i think they've really suffered for it. OTOH, because of that experience, i do get irritated some times at what seems to me to be some jews' belief that the holocaust was their unique event. unfortunately, no group has corned the market on that kind of horror.

 

[sugarbutch]

People are uncomfortable with the evil that people can do. Everyone likes to imagine that only monsters are capable of such things, but the history shows that we don't need much to dehumanize other people and rationalize their murder.

 

[dopey]

[quote name="Maooo

 

[Manton]

I would have had a hard time breaking bread with Beinart. I thought his big "courageous" book was a disgrace.