How we remember Shoa and other atrocities

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by romafan, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Patrologia

    Patrologia Senior member

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    I read that somewhat differently. The Exodus is a formative event - it defines who Israel is throughout the Hebrew Bible, and it defines their relationship with God (he is the one who "brought you out of the land of Egypt"). Egypt continues for centuries, even millenia, as a byword for "everything bad."

    I think to say that the Shoa is viewed in the same way is a pretty accurate and very powerful way of saying that this event was so profound that it actually takes the place (in part) of the Exodus as a/the formative event in the history and more importantly the identity of Israel.

    (Boy am I glad I started following the Moderation thread - and to think I just wanted to know the gossip when somebody got banned or TO'd!)
     
  2. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Keep in mind that the Shoa is not at all personally relevant for a huge portion of world Jewry (and about 50% of Israeli Jews) - the Sephardic Jews were largely unaffected (not entirely unaffected, but not in as cataclysmic a way). The Exodus is part of the myth of the entire people - the Shoa is more limited, though more immediate. On the other hand, for many American Jews and Jewish Schools, the Holocaust is a huge and perhaps primary part of their Jewish identity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  3. in stitches

    in stitches Kung Joo Moderator

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    very interesting points guys. i never thought of it that way.

    the saddest thing is, for every moment we get further away from the holocaust, and for every witness we lose, there is another person that uses the time gap, to deny anything happened at all.
     
  4. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    This is a major problem if you ask me. Which you didn't.
     
  5. in stitches

    in stitches Kung Joo Moderator

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    OTT, the spanish inquisition may be something that community is more in touch with, than those of european decent are.

    also, i would personally not use the word "myth" regarding the exodus. ;)
     
  6. in stitches

    in stitches Kung Joo Moderator

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    please to elaborate. i am actually not disagreeing necessarily. i am just curious why you say that. as i wonder if we have different reason to think the same thing, possibly because we approach it from different POVs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  7. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    There really aren't that many deniers, to be honest, virtually all of them are in Muslim tyrannies or soon to be tyrannies, outside those realms they have no influence at all.
     
  8. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I agree.
    My kids' school, which is a Jewish School but pointedly NOT a Yeshivah Day School is really into the Holocaust and has all sorts of programming about it. I am mostly uninterested in the Holocaust. Horrified, but uninterested. My wife is more connected because her father was a survivor and she grew up around lots of survivors. She takes my kids to an all night "reading of the names" of the murdered (it is staggering, they can only cover one region or large city a year).
     
  9. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    If it makes you feel better, I was using the word in the academic sense - an important, shared story that binds a group together and gives it identity. In that context, historical truth or non-truth is really irrelevant. What matters is that the story is shared and used to create identity.

    re the Inquisition, think how much the trauma of the murders during the Crusades has passed. Do you ever get upset about it? Yet it was so horrific that memories of it entered the liturgy in many places, even the Kin'os. That is barely happening yet, if at all, for the Holocaust (in the Orthodox community(.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  10. FLMountainMan

    FLMountainMan White Hispanic

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    Sadly, I've met two young, otherwise quite pleasant, people who doubt the Holocaust and try to minimize it. Pretty awful. A third insinuates they brought it on themselves. I mention it literally everytime I see them to try to shame them. I live in a pretty liberal town (called the "Berkeley of the South" at one point) and it's still a small sample but I wouldn't be surprised if the Holocaust gets the revisionist treatment at some point in our lives.
     
  11. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    I am actually very interested in it and learned alot about it. But I think the way it is taught and studied now is debilitating to the psyche of the Jews.

    The Israelis kind of have the right idea--I remember when I was important and I got some briefings at IDF HQ, one of the briefers had a photo of an F-16 squadron over Auchwitz in his office. That's a very effective picture and also motivating him in the right way.

    The way it works on Americans is not so good, IMO. I recall--and I have discussed this with Matt--a really heated exchange I once had with EL72, who no longer posts here, and his point was that even though he lives in and enjoys the bounties of North American Anglo-Saxon civilization, he has zero trust for the entire West, feels no loyalty to Canda at all, takes for granted that the US and Canada (gentle Canada!) will sell out and even harm the Jews in heartbeat, and so on.

    That was an extreme case no doubt but I have encountered much like it over the years. In a way it reminds me of how the ChiComs have a raised two successive generations who hate Japan with a passion and can tell you every detail about the Rape of Nanking but know very little else about their own history.
     
  12. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    this is an interesting discussion. my daughter went to school with many cambodian kids whose parents had been through the killing fields. there really was nothing in that culture that encouraged any kind of remembering or memorializing and i think they've really suffered for it. OTOH, because of that experience, i do get irritated some times at what seems to me to be some jews' belief that the holocaust was their unique event. unfortunately, no group has corned the market on that kind of horror.
     
  13. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Bearded Prick Dubiously Honored

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    People are uncomfortable with the evil that people can do. Everyone likes to imagine that only monsters are capable of such things, but the history shows that we don't need much to dehumanize other people and rationalize their murder.
     
  14. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  15. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    I would have had a hard time breaking bread with Beinart. I thought his big "courageous" book was a disgrace.
     

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