How many miles did you run today?

[FlyingMonkey]

@Dusty Heaters - I'd agree with @Fueco that you need to think about your pace and power and how much you are doing at particular paces.

Macmillian - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ - whose ratios I try to follow, is very similar to Daniels. Most of what I do is based on the same division between Long / Marathon-pace (easy) / Tempo / Interval (speed) and also Recovery (which is even slower than Long).

My ratios this month in terms of mileage (not including the marathon I'll do at the end of the month) are

62% Long (9:30 - 9:40 min/mile)
17% Marathon Pace (c.8:15 min/mile)
12% Tempo (6:45 min/mile)
9% Intervals (6:05 - 6:10 min/mile)

I tend to run faster than recommended doing tempo and intervals, but that's because it feels fine to do so. However, I really do try to stick to the paces at longer distances because that is where you really mess things up if you run too fast - and I think that's what you are doing.

Incidentally, I am not actually sure about the benefits of the Marathon Pace element; the only thing it seems to do is remind you what pace you should be running at for marathons. Mike, my World Masters champion friend I mentioned above, only does Long Run pace (80%) or Tempo and Interval training (20%) - and if you look at my ratios, if I just folded the Marathon-pace into the Long Runs, that's pretty much where I'd be.

 

[Fueco]

@Dusty Heaters - I'd agree with @Fueco that you need to think about your pace and power and how much you are doing at particular paces.

Macmillian - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ - whose ratios I try to follow, is very similar to Daniels. Most of what I do is based on the same division between Long / Marathon-pace (easy) / Tempo / Interval (speed) and also Recovery (which is even slower than Long).

My ratios this month in terms of mileage (not including the marathon I'll do at the end of the month) are

62% Long (9:30 - 9:40 min/mile)
17% Marathon Pace (c.8:15 min/mile)
12% Tempo (6:45 min/mile)
9% Intervals (6:05 - 6:10 min/mile)

I tend to run faster than recommended doing tempo and intervals, but that's because it feels fine to do so. However, I really do try to stick to the paces at longer distances because that is where you really mess things up if you run too fast - and I think that's what you are doing.

Incidentally, I am not actually sure about the benefits of the Marathon Pace element; the only thing it seems to do is remind you what pace you should be running at for marathons. Mike, my World Masters champion friend I mentioned above, only does Long Run pace (80%) or Tempo and Interval training (20%) - and if you look at my ratios, if I just folded the Marathon-pace into the Long Runs, that's pretty much where I'd be.

I realized that I swapped the wording. I meant easy pace where I put marathon pace regarding the largest portion of my running.

My understanding is that the marathon pace work teaches your body to move more efficiently at your long distance race pace. I’ve felt the greatest benefit from doing that pace towards the end of long runs.

it’s been a while since I’ve really rigorously trained for anything. Before we moved to Colorado (2015), I would run to the track to do speed work in the form of 400 repeats with friends. I seem to recall that the difference between interval and repetition pace is in the duration of the efforts. I need togo back and read that part of the book.

 

[knucks]

Im just dumb and running right now, it was 16F when I went for my brief mile.

Bought a pair of Clifton 6 to have in the rotation.

Thanks for the Speedgoat suggestion, I'll look into those.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

My understanding is that the marathon pace work teaches your body to move more efficiently at your long distance race pace. I’ve felt the greatest benefit from doing that pace towards the end of long runs.

Yes, I agree and I've been trying to do the last few km of my long runs at that pace recently.

Anyway, my cold seems to be easing so I went out and ran the 10.5km marathon pace run I was supposed to do today (albeit in the evening rather than the morning). I have to say, cold aside, the training and the taper is working: my body feels really good at the moment, my legs feel springy, and I had to make sure I kept down to the pace I wanted. Even so 5:02 min/km was at the top end of the range. I did my visualizations all the way around, imagining that this was the full 42.2km, counting the km off. Maybe I really could run a marathon at this pace? Maybe next year, but not yet. I'm aiming a bit lower this time.

 

[jbarwick]

Taking the day off today and my planned 34 miles tomorrow for my birthday. I think running the other night made my cold much worse. My bad. Also 2,000 miles for this year also looks shot. Next year I will likely focus on other exercise than running. My cardio will still be running but the focus will be more stability and likely weight room time.

 

[Dusty Heaters]

Thank you @Fueco and @FlyingMonkey for weighing in and your citations -- This type of discourse adds a ton more value than our usual 'role call' posts. TLDR: I agree that I think it's problematic that I'm not running my easy days easy enough.

I also vest a great deal of faith in the training pedagogues from the greats; Jack Daniels, Author Lydiard, Frank Shorter, Authur Lydiard, etc. I own the books and have read them front to back multiple times. There's no question that their knowledge has served as the backbone for many successful running teams/groups/programs. But...I'm not so quick to discount HR entirely as a useless variable. Not to say it's a gold standard metric, but as an extreme example, there's just as much success with Dr. Phil Maffetone training method that relies exclusively on HR. It seems to be particularly effective with masters runners. I also struggle with the notion of staying within a particular VDOT or pace-range until you race faster. That, to me, would lend itself to either over-racing or stalling progress.

Personally,I think the more data the better. Pace ranges correlate heavily with perceived effort, which is qualitative in nature. Environmental/situational variables are going to impact those ranges; elevation, weather, climate, footing, surface, terrain, grade, etc. 10:30/mi pace up a 10% grade above treeline or at sea-level in the freezing-rain with a headwind is going feel a lot harder than the prescribed 'easy day'. That's where I think HR data has some value. Yes, it is impacted by many variables, but the dataset is quantitative in nature and can be normalized overtime to assess trends on effort, exertion, and aerobic fitness. HR data is also a key metric during a Lactate Threshold test, which is useful when you're seeking to improve economy/endurance at hard paces.

You had also mentioned 'power', which I agree, is another useful data-point. I run with a Stryd footpod that attempts to calculate running power, leg spring stiffness, form power, etc. I've found it useful at understanding fatigue over duration and variable running economy. I should follow the power zones more closely...I'm always just a little above the specified 'easy' zone.

I find it extremely difficult to master running paces 9:20/mi+ while retaining good form. It feels like a detriment to jog for hours on end at pace that impairs proper mechanics and neuro-muscular conditioning. Hip extension, stride rate, and knee drive are all reduced to a shuffle and that places more strain on my joints than a slightly faster pace would due to the loading/unloading of major muscular groups. But that's likely my own problem and something I need to refine. I'm sure others much faster than me could make the same claim about running above 8:00/mi+.

 

[jbarwick]

I have 2 paces, I can talk comfortably and I cannot talk comfortably. Paces vary based on terrain. I then have a miles goal and figure out how to schedule my week based on that.

 

[knucks]

why does running have to be so hard?

 

[Michigan Planner]

6.3 miles last night

I have 2 paces, I can talk comfortably and I cannot talk comfortably. Paces vary based on terrain. I then have a miles goal and figure out how to schedule my week based on that.

This is my basic method. Occasionally I'll go to the high school track and do some speed work but really I like to just get out there and run and shoot for my weekly mile goal.

 

[jbarwick]

why does running have to be so hard?

I sounded like this when I used to cycle. Go out with a casual B group then it turns into a race every damned time.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

why does running have to be so hard?

It gets better!

Seriously. It takes a few months but it really does get to the point when you feel bouncy and it's enjoyable.

That's when you decide you are doing to do some races...

And then it gets hard again.

(repeat ad infinitum)

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Personally,I think the more data the better.

This may be part of the problem. You can have all the data you like (and there is never enough data...) but it's what it means that matters. And you might be able to get the same meaning without datafying everything, in fact you might be able to see what you need to see more clearly.

I don't do HR. No smartwatch. No iPhone. No Strava. I don't record anything live. I work out what distances I run using maps (in advance or afterwords). I note the time at start and finish (sometimes for particular splits too or just to check my pace is right) with an old-fashioned stopwatch. Otherwise I go by feel.

Generally the more data I have, the more stressed and pressurized I feel. I want to enjoy the experience of running as well as reaching my goals. I'm not going to sacrifice one for the other.

Now I am not suggesting you should be the same as me - we all do things differently here - but I think you are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees.

 

[Dusty Heaters]

Fair assessment @FlyingMonkey . Advisement received and appreciated.

Given the background you provided, maybe... We have different goals, motivators, and fun that we get from running. Differences aside, it’s great that there are so many things one can love and appreciate about the sport.

 

[knucks]

im all for data but its getting annoying pressing start and stop on the strava app, i kind of just want to lace up and go (granted its now winter so its more than that, theres some layers involved.)

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Because I missed Tuesday's tempo run due to my cold, I went out for my usual 7.2km this morning instead. Lingering after-effects, and also an eye to next weekend's marathon, meant I wasn't going to push for a super-fast run. 4:19min/km was fine.

Tomorrow, it's my last 'long run' before next Sunday, and because of the taper, it's only 16km. Then I have a 5km tempo on Tuesday, a relaxed track session on Wednesday evening (I will probably run with the 4:30min/km group), and a final easy 5km on Friday. We travel up to the Fuji lakelands on Saturday and then it's race day on Sunday, 9am start - this is what it looked like last year:

Frankly I don't know what to expect. I know I can 'do it', but I don't want to just jog around in over 4 hours. However, I can't run to the kind of pace that I know I should be capable of. I've had only 5 months of running seriously again (and only 4 months of that, organised training) from a basis of being a bit overweight and not having run that much for more than a year. So I have a broad range of possibility between 3:30 and 4:00, but I am aiming at what I think is a realistic 3:45. Whatever 'realistic' means... The race has designated pacers for every 15 minute increment, so I'll just try to stick with the 3:45 pacers and then, if I can push on a bit in the last 5km, I will.