How many miles did you run today?

[Dusty Heaters]

Not at all. Hibernation like sleep.

 

[Fueco]

Is your sleep restless? That is the easiest way to figure out over training.

If there are no symptoms of illness, it’s either overtraining or a sore thumb. Amputate to determine which.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Seeing your normal running volumes, @Dusty Heaters, I'd say definitely overtraining. I think you're probably trying to run too fast too often. My friend, Mike, who is a World Masters champion and age group world record-holder, swears by the 80/20 rule - that 80% of your running should be long and slow. I don't meet that either...

 

[Dusty Heaters]

Kidding aside, I think you’re all right, overtrained/under-rested for my current ability level. It’s strange that this time it manifested differently than prior occurrences. Elevated resting HR, restless sleep or trouble staying asleep, prolonged soreness, and weakened immunity, were my classic tells...but this has been none of that. My workouts weren’t stalling, my endurance wasn’t waning, and my mental resolve wasn’t cloudy...up until the very moment I crashed.

Recently I had 15 consecutive days on, good performances throughout the whole streak, and took a rest day. Ever since I took that rest day it’s been absolute ****. Took two more consecutive days off after a rough start back, still bad.

I’ve been averaging about 45-55 miles since June and only since late September did I start to sprinkle in some speed-related work. Most of my volume is run at an ‘easy’ relative intensity. I am data-driven and keep a close eye on my vitals 24/7. Resting HR fell from 47-48 BPM to 42-44 BPM and my “easy runs” were all kept below 145 BPM, usually mid-130’s, during this period. HRV was always 100ms+. I’m aware there’s a lot that influences HR, but these are normative averages over an extended period of time. And I correlate perceived effort / breathing rate into the mix as checks & balances measure. On easy runs I’m taking 4-6 steps between breaths. Last year around this time I struggled to keep my HR below 150 BPM at ~9:20/mi pace...a full minute slower than where I am currently at <140. Net/net, the numbers seemed to coincide with fitness gains and not warning signs.

But I guess it really do be like that sometimes. I’ll back way off and eat clean for a bit.

 

[Fueco]

4 miles (3.5 on trails) with the dogs at sunset tonight.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Sitting out the track workout tonight too. I will go for a slow-pace run tomorrow morning, and then maybe a tempo the next day if I'm properly better, but intervals at speed is just not a good idea tonight.

 

[jbarwick]

8.5 miles last night in the freezing cold. For some reason the cold affected me a lot more than anticipated as I dressed like I would any other time running in 20* weather.

 

[edinatlanta]

6 miles. It was easy getting down the mountain (About .75 a mile) and the lake was flat. But coming up the mountain...

 

[Dusty Heaters]

20min on the mill as a warmup to strength training. Super easy 9:30/mi pace.

30min compound and dynamic mobility leg work. Felt invigorated post workout, but I will definitely be walking like a baby giraffe tomorrow.

 

[Fueco]

@Dusty Heaters Whats your most recent race result? Time and distance.

 

[Dusty Heaters]

@Dusty Heaters Whats your most recent race result? Time and distance.

Good question — regrettably I’ve never actually given my 100% race effort in any distance this whole year. My closest was 1 month ago where I ran a 9mi route at 6:37/mi avg pace. I had more in the tank, but it was about 90-95% effort in good conditions, untapered. 2mi - 13:07, 5k - 20:24, during that workout.

 

[Fueco]

Good question — regrettably I’ve never actually given my 100% race effort in any distance this whole year. My closest was 1 month ago where I ran a 9mi route at 6:37/mi avg pace. I had more in the tank, but it was about 90-95% effort in good conditions, untapered. 2mi - 13:07, 5k - 20:24, during that workout.

View attachment 1278713

the reason I ask is because heart race isn’t a reliable basis for establishing training zones. There are too many variables that can affect it. I’d highly recommend looking into the VDOT training system and sticking to the paces and recommended weekly percentages in each zone. Your highest weekly mileages should be a marathon pace, then easy pace, with I and R pace work a much smaller percentage.

coach Jack Daniels’ book does a great job of laying out the science behind how it works and gives lots of sample training plans. I plugged your two mile time into theonline VDOT calculator: here’s what it says your training paces should be.

edit: By the way, that Repetition pace is where you should be at for a 5K race.

 

[Fueco]

Basically, power is a better way to train. Cyclists have power meters, but runners have to use estimated power since there isn’t an easy way to measure power in running.

The Daniels System uses race or time trial results to establish training paces. You don’t move to faster training paces until you have a better race result.

I don’t rigorously follow the system, but I do keep my Easy, Marathon and Tempo pace efforts in my prescribed paces (9:20-9:59, 8:20 and 7:50/mile respectively). This works well... I nearly demolished my Half Marathon PR earlier this year, and would have if I’d been tapered for it.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

@Dusty Heaters - I'd agree with @Fueco that you need to think about your pace and power and how much you are doing at particular paces.

Macmillian - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ - whose ratios I try to follow, is very similar to Daniels. Most of what I do is based on the same division between Long / Marathon-pace (easy) / Tempo / Interval (speed) and also Recovery (which is even slower than Long).

My ratios this month in terms of mileage (not including the marathon I'll do at the end of the month) are

62% Long (9:30 - 9:40 min/mile)
17% Marathon Pace (c.8:15 min/mile)
12% Tempo (6:45 min/mile)
9% Intervals (6:05 - 6:10 min/mile)

I tend to run faster than recommended doing tempo and intervals, but that's because it feels fine to do so. However, I really do try to stick to the paces at longer distances because that is where you really mess things up if you run too fast - and I think that's what you are doing.

Incidentally, I am not actually sure about the benefits of the Marathon Pace element; the only thing it seems to do is remind you what pace you should be running at for marathons. Mike, my World Masters champion friend I mentioned above, only does Long Run pace (80%) or Tempo and Interval training (20%) - and if you look at my ratios, if I just folded the Marathon-pace into the Long Runs, that's pretty much where I'd be.

 

[Fueco]

@Dusty Heaters - I'd agree with @Fueco that you need to think about your pace and power and how much you are doing at particular paces.

Macmillian - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ - whose ratios I try to follow, is very similar to Daniels. Most of what I do is based on the same division between Long / Marathon-pace (easy) / Tempo / Interval (speed) and also Recovery (which is even slower than Long).

My ratios this month in terms of mileage (not including the marathon I'll do at the end of the month) are

62% Long (9:30 - 9:40 min/mile)
17% Marathon Pace (c.8:15 min/mile)
12% Tempo (6:45 min/mile)
9% Intervals (6:05 - 6:10 min/mile)

I tend to run faster than recommended doing tempo and intervals, but that's because it feels fine to do so. However, I really do try to stick to the paces at longer distances because that is where you really mess things up if you run too fast - and I think that's what you are doing.

Incidentally, I am not actually sure about the benefits of the Marathon Pace element; the only thing it seems to do is remind you what pace you should be running at for marathons. Mike, my World Masters champion friend I mentioned above, only does Long Run pace (80%) or Tempo and Interval training (20%) - and if you look at my ratios, if I just folded the Marathon-pace into the Long Runs, that's pretty much where I'd be.

I realized that I swapped the wording. I meant easy pace where I put marathon pace regarding the largest portion of my running.

My understanding is that the marathon pace work teaches your body to move more efficiently at your long distance race pace. I’ve felt the greatest benefit from doing that pace towards the end of long runs.

it’s been a while since I’ve really rigorously trained for anything. Before we moved to Colorado (2015), I would run to the track to do speed work in the form of 400 repeats with friends. I seem to recall that the difference between interval and repetition pace is in the duration of the efforts. I need togo back and read that part of the book.