How does bespoke differ from MTM? ...

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Despos

+10, Alex "Hey, nice suit. Where did you get it? I bespoke it. Really? Yeah! It's custom made from a bench tailor."

Considering I very rarely speak about such matters with people in person, I never thought about what terms to use and why it would even make a difference. I also don't know why the forums produce record numbers of people who want every item and process defined to the Nth degree, broken down into their subatomic elements and then proceed to throw everything together like they did it with the lights off.

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Synthetic forum-speak or not, "bespoke" and "made-to-measure" are used on the forums to distinguish between two meaningfully different things, no? The problem with "custom" isn't that it isn't elegant enough, but that it doesn't make that distinction clear. Sure, the average person on the street will look at you funny if you insist your suit is bespoke, not made-to-measure; but, that doesn't mean the difference isn't real. Amongst people into this sort of thing, it's nice having clear terms, regardless of their etymology or popular usage.
As atailor said and I fully agree, bespoke, by definition, does not describe the quality or build of the suit, only the process by which the suit was acquired. Bespoke does not relay how the suit is made or the quality of the suit and if you think that the physical suit is better just because of a pattern making process, you are wrong. "Custom" conveys more the meaning of craftsmanship but it does not define the method of crafting such as machine made, hand made, or bench made and the term bespoke does not distinguish this either. I could make you an individual pattern and run the suit thru a factory or make it on the bench. Are they both bespoke due to the paper pattern the cloth was cut from? I know famous tailors who make a pattern for each client but the pattern is not drafted it is made from a block. Does this effect the meaning of bespoke or does the individual pattern need to be organic and made by formula. Pattern,shhmattern. The attributes of the pattern are relevant but it's in tandem with what happens after the cloth is cut that matters and defines the end product.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Despos

As atailor said and I fully agree, bespoke, by definition, does not describe the quality or build of the suit, only the process by which the suit was acquired. Bespoke does not relay how the suit is made or the quality of the suit and if you think that the physical suit is better just because of a pattern making process, you are wrong. "Custom" conveys more the meaning of craftsmanship but it does not define the method of crafting such as machine made, hand made, or bench made and the term bespoke does not distinguish this either. I could make you an individual pattern and run the suit thru a factory or make it on the bench. Are they both bespoke due to the paper pattern the cloth was cut from? I know famous tailors who make a pattern for each client but the pattern is not drafted it is made from a block. Does this effect the meaning of bespoke or does the individual pattern need to be organic and made by formula. Pattern,shhmattern. The attributes of the pattern are relevant but it's in tandem with what happens after the cloth is cut that matters and defines the end product.

I never said bespoke was necessarily better than made-to-measure, just that it is a different sort of process. What makes good bespoke or good made-to-measure is a seperate matter.

 

[Despos]

Which is better is a subjective call and the answer will change because the results will vary. To answer the OP's question would require an objective explanation and listing of the steps of both categories or actually 3 categories.
To me MTM is closer to RTW than custom and that is the first comparison. RTW vs MTM. MTM should be seen first as a next level RTW rather than a lower level Custom made/tailor made/bespoke garment. I associate bespoke with working thru a custom tailor and a vastly different experience, process and product.
Bottom line, I don't like the term bespoke because it doesn't mean or define what people think it does.
Look the word up and see what it implies.

 

[Mildly Consumptive]

This may be your best contribution to date. What did Greedo say to make everyone laugh?

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

 

[koolhistorian]

For me:
Bespoke - a garment made for me (fabric, cut and fitting) by an artisan with artisanal methods;
MTM (or custom made) - a garment made from a certain cloth, but on a standard (even if is tweaked on my body) form and with industrial methods.
Even if I have MTM that look better on me compared with certain bespoke clothes (former tailor), if you look very attentively the fit is somewhat lesser than in real bespoke - for example the way in which my difference in shoulders is managed, etc. None the less, for things that I see as purely functional wardrobe (travel suits and jackets, etc) I use my MTM tailor, for "my sunday best" I use the bespoke one (or for "peculiar fabric", in modern terms, as keepers tweeds).

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Mildly Consumptive

This may be your best contribution to date. What did Greedo say to make everyone laugh?
Greedo: Mildly Consumptive? He doesn't give himself enough credit. He's Wholly Consumptive!

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Despos

To me MTM is closer to RTW than custom and that is the first comparison. RTW vs MTM. MTM should be seen first as a next level RTW rather than a lower level Custom made/tailor made/bespoke garment. I associate bespoke with working thru a custom tailor and a vastly different experience, process and product.

Generally speaking, MTM is RTW with nearly none of advantages of RTW and with nearly all the disadvantages of custom/bespoke.

Originally Posted by Despos

Bottom line, I don't like the term bespoke because it doesn't mean or define what people think it does.

If you don't like "bespoke," and we don't like "custom," how about "badass?" Does that make you happy?


- B

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Generally speaking, MTM is RTW with nearly none of advantages of RTW and with nearly all the disadvantages of custom/bespoke.
? Do explain.

Are you talking about fashion 'house styles'?

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Bespoke = iGent princess for a day.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by apropos

? Do explain.

Are you talking about fashion 'house styles'?

The great thing about RTW clothes is that you can try on a finished garment and get an immediate sense of fit, cut and the whole effect of the fabric on you. You can do this over and over again with different clothes and different fabrics, rejecting many actual items until you find what you like: in other words, you can shop. You are not squinting at swatch books or imagining a garment from a bolt of cloth.

The great thing about bespoke (oh, alright...when Alex and Chris make something for you: custom), is that when you have the right tailor, you will be getting a garment highly individualized in fit and details, made through a process where both can be reassessed, changed and optimized at crucial points unavailable through any other means.

With MTM, your risk of getting neither is substantial.


- B

 

[eg1]

I prefer custom-tailored -- bespoke just sounds tinny to my ear, like calling my car a "motorized conveyance"

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Despos

As atailor said and I fully agree, bespoke, by definition, does not describe the quality or build of the suit, only the process by which the suit was acquired. Bespoke does not relay how the suit is made or the quality of the suit and if you think that the physical suit is better just because of a pattern making process, you are wrong. "Custom" conveys more the meaning of craftsmanship but it does not define the method of crafting such as machine made, hand made, or bench made and the term bespoke does not distinguish this either. I could make you an individual pattern and run the suit thru a factory or make it on the bench. Are they both bespoke due to the paper pattern the cloth was cut from? I know famous tailors who make a pattern for each client but the pattern is not drafted it is made from a block. Does this effect the meaning of bespoke or does the individual pattern need to be organic and made by formula. Pattern,shhmattern. The attributes of the pattern are relevant but it's in tandem with what happens after the cloth is cut that matters and defines the end product.

"Custom" does not really say anything about the quality of the build either, though. Every point you make above could equally be made about that word. A "custom" suit might be machine sewn in a factory somewhere, but as long as it is not RTW and is in some respect individualized for the customer, then it is "custom."

"Bespoke" -- as the English makers use the term -- means made from scratch for one individual. I agree that it can be badly made or well made, but as a general rule, when you get to that level, it will be reasonably well made. The bespoke tailors I know do bench work. I suppose there are some out there who don't, but they are the exception.

What we are all talking about here is the small number of tailors who hand draft their own patterns, hand cut the suits themselves, perhaps outsource some of the initial sewing to a coatmaker and trousermaker, all of whom hand-sew all the seams that should be hand-sewn, and otherwise fit and finish the garments on the premesis. Along the way there will be several fittings for a first suit, and always one or two for subsequent suits.

Once again, according to the CTAA, any shop that takes a client's measurements, writes them on a form and sends that form to a factory and gets back a garment lacking only the trouser cuffs and buttonholes is "custom". But that is not what you, Despos, does.

So wouldn't you prefer that your product be differentiated from generic "custom"?

 

[Shirtmaven]

I think Chris' point as well as mine, Is that our business was defined by the term "custom".
as that term became bastardized, others looked for a new term to define the same definition.
Bespoke is quickly becoming a useless term as well as more and more companies define themselves by that term. Even if they send off measurements to a factory far far away.


the most important aspect of having clothing made is the relationship between tailor,shirtmaker or even salesman and the customer.
that the tailor, shirtmaker, or salesman is upfront and honest about their process, and if it meets the needs of the potential client.
this information is gleened through conversations between the two parites and not by hearsay on internet clothing forums.

Carl

 

[Nicola]

Can I ask how Italian su misura fits in?