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How do you roll? Untangle the Great Buttondown Collar Conspiracy!

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Apr 10, 2013.

Which collar roll is closest to the ideal?

Poll closed Apr 17, 2013.
  1. #1

    70 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. #2

    10 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. #3

    8 vote(s)
    5.0%
  4. #4

    49 vote(s)
    30.6%
  5. #5

    23 vote(s)
    14.4%
  1. Sonny58

    Sonny58 Senior member

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    It appears so.
     
  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    In case no one's figure it out yet, the main difference between #1 and #4 is that the top curvature of #1 is broader and flatter. Otherwise, their basic geometries are the same.
     
  3. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    I'm interested to know if the pic I've posted would be closer to #1 or #4. Still not quite sure. I think I'd say #4.

    Forget about the "secondary rolls" on the points, those are due to linen's wrinkly nature and I can tame them.
     
  4. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Tyger! Tyger!
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Loathing

    Loathing Senior member

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    I'm surprised no one has mentioned the size of one's tie relative to collar... Vox's tie looks much bigger, which I presume means his collar is smaller... Obviously the two collars are different in shape, but I think they're fundamentally different in various aspects of magnitude, too. Naturally, the discrepancy might be a function of a difference in the ties' knots...
     
  6. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Mercer's polo collar points are 3 7/16" long. Don't know if he gets them made longer, but I doubt it.
     
  7. tim_horton

    tim_horton Senior member

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    I recently got a OCBD shirt from Kamakura in NYC... It has almost too much roll. I was almost rolled away.
     
  8. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have one as well. It looks like Vox's Mercer above.
     
  9. ord65

    ord65 Member

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    Chicago

    The photos I posted above are Kamakura - although it looks like the make several collars. Is this true?
     
  10. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Interesting. I knew they make both slim and ladyboy fit models but I thought there is only one collar shape. On the other hand mine has a much closer bell shape rather than the wide one in your photo. It's possible that is caused by the ties being different, but I have no idea. They certainly look very different.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  11. mossrockss

    mossrockss Senior member

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    Can I re-vote? I like the guy in picture #5, the right-hand guy in picture #6 and the dude in #9.

    Which one is that? If it's #1 I guess I don't need to re-vote.
     
  12. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    For me...

    2 can be instantly eliminated. There's no roll to it. It's flat and lifeless.

    3 conflates two different things - a wider spread but with a 2-like flatness. It's not Brooks, but a spread BD can look nice. I'm not too keen on Liverano's but itsstillmatt's is - predictably - awesome:

    [​IMG]

    5 looks sloppy to me. But I'm not sure any collar is made with an above the collar band roll - I think that's a function of poor ironing. So I believe 1 (or possibly 2) can devolve into 5 but at any rate you don't want to roll up against your jowls.

    1 is my choice.

    A real life example of 1 is Dean Acheson's collar - which is what I imagine of when I think of the venerable Brooks Roll. It has a nice shape but doesn't come close to touching the body of the shirt again until the buttons.

    [​IMG]

    The fullness in the middle is what makes it look so graceful. The curve in the middle of the collar is more subtle than on #4.

    4 isn't bad but it comes too close to touching the shirt body before the points. As someone pointed out upthread, it almost looks like a pinned collar.

    I'd call this one (which I also like) a #1 but tending slightly towards #4. I also like it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  13. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Now that we're eight pages into this, am I really the only person who has no idea how Matt's drawings translate into real life? I have no idea what we're looking at.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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  15. scottcw

    scottcw Senior member

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    I voted for #1 and then ordered a Mercer shirt with the 25% first time buyer discount.
     
  16. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    Took me a while but here's what I think he's trying to isolate with each drawing--

    1) full / bellshaped roll - not a lot of curvature to the front of the collar
    2) no roll anywhere - just buttons to weld a point collar to your chest
    3) wide spread - no roll
    there should be another one for wide spread with decent roll
    4) kinda like (1) with with a more pronounced S-shape on the front of the collar
    5) when the collar rolls up above the collar band as opposed to out
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  17. Orgetorix

    Orgetorix Senior member

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    Has an actual picture of a real-life #5 been shown yet? I'm not sure I've seen it.
     
  18. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Re Kamakura:
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. Holdfast

    Holdfast Senior member

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    Because this thread is all about generalised absolutist statements made on the basis of individual opinion, here are some more:

    - All button-down collars look terrible when worn with ties, regardless of their geometry, and every example in this thread is further evidence of this.
    - Worn open collar, they're all fine. Roll fetishisation leaves me cold.
    - The one exception to the above rules are those really short collars where the buttons are so high as to be almost on the collar band. They're terrible in either application, unless you're under 18 or in a pop band appealing to under 18s.

    On a less tongue-in-cheek, more nuanced - and much more realistic - note, buttondowns work within the context of creating some very archetypal american (and american-inspired-but-exaggerated european continental) looks. So if that's what you want to recreate for your personal aesthetic reasons, it seems sensible to simply ape the most commonly appearing roll within the wardrobe of those conforming most closely to the archetype you're chasing. So pore through old or current photos and find the most common style worn by those people. It shouldn't be that hard. I lack the motivation to try, but that's because I'm not a fan of buttondown collars with ties, or indeed the archetype under discussion in broader terms.

    I would agree with Foo that all this business about learning to love the fundamental mutability of the BD roll is irrelevant to what Foo is asking. He doesn't want to love that mutability but instead to talk about what forms (whether transient or not) are most preferred by readers. Whether such a form could be consistently recreated throughout the day is really a separate question.

    (Of course it could be, and not merely through geometry, but also through steps like starching your collar to hell and back into whatever arcane configuration is preferred. Of course this would run precisely counter to the philosophical preferences of the roll-mutability crowd, but that's not a reason not to do it, if what one wanted was simply to present a certain look, regardless of its current quasi-religious meaning or more prosaic origins.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
    4 people like this.
  20. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    you are so English
     

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