Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Apr 10, 2013.
How about the collar roll of an unbuttoned, button-down collar?
+1 Excellent point. Equally, if not more important than the original post. I too would like input on this.
I think you are misconstruing what I wrote about Ishizu. I never argued that individual "attitude" took the place of aesthetic, technical qualities. My point was that to wear something like a buttondown collar in the American Trad style, one must to some extent resonate with the ethos of that manner of dress. Yet, all the attitude, emotion, understanding, psyche, etc., in the world will not suddenly make a bad-looking collar look good.
Yes, as I've pointed out, all these factors come into play. They will affect the shape of the collar's roll, not your attitude. It's that shape I'm interested in and I thought others were!
For what it's worth, #1 and #4 are both supposed to be bell-shaped. The differences are the volume of the bell's upper portion and the width across its top curvature.
Not necessarily. Lots of other variables come into play: fabric type, whether there is lining and how it is executed, collar shape, button positioning, etc.
Maybe so. So what? That's exactly what many of us experienced members struggle with: calibrating a custom buttondown collar to roll correctly. That discussion with your shirtmaker inevitably touches on collar point length, spread angle, lining type (namely, not to add any!), button placement, etc. You don't just tell him that you want something floppy and unlined, to express the vintage Brooks Brothers attitude.
Who said anything about wanting a clean line? An unlined buttondown collar will still tend to take on a defined shape, as illustrated. Something cannot look "floppy, soft, casual." That's how something might feel. Yes, that it is important and crucial, but not what I'm asking for your opinion on. How do you like your buttondown collars to look?
See, was that so hard?
Anyway, I think you are wrong about the unpredictability of the collar. Yes, wear and washing will affect things, but each collar will nonetheless tend to take on a particular shape. It will not change throughout the day.
Well, I mean a clean roll - don't know how to put it, smooth, symmetric curved lines? Like, a roll shape that looks studied, and structured to look a certain way. Which is what I get from your pics. Still, I think I've understood where you want to get to, which is why I've settled on #4. Add some imperfection to that shape and you get what I like.
I've had collar roll change during the day (mostly becoming more asymmetric), and my polo collars are fused, so I guess an unlined collar would be even more unpredictable.
Maybe I'm not correctly putting my thoughts into words (which is likely due to english not being my native language), but to me, something can look floppy, soft and casual. Most times you can tell when something is going to be soft and floppy just by looking at it, can't you?
I do not tell my tailor that I want a strong, permanent collar shape for the buttondown. I actually do tell him I want something with long collar points and unlined. I don't need to specify floppy - that is implicit in my request. The intention of the collar was to be floppy which could change shape. You are looking for something that does not. You want a button down that does not act like a button down is supposed to.
1, 2 and 5 are all fine. 3 and 4 could be fixed by simply moving the buttons.
First, you're overthinking it. The criteria for a "nice roll" is mainly that the collar have a sufficient degree of roll, not that it have any particular shape. It's fundamentally a quantitative thing.
Second, you can't just "put aside the question of how a collar roll might change through wear." Variability is inherent to the buttondown collar. If you're trying to nail it down to one specific look, you're doing it wrong.
This is the same shirt, and all the photos were taken within the last year. It rolls differently every time I wear it. Which tie I wear with it and how I adjust the knot might have something to do with it, but that's just the way it is.
I think you are reading too much into this. The collars are obviously Platonic illustrations. Of course, real fabric will not fit the shape 100% perfectly. But, nonetheless, every buttondown collar I've seen takes on a distinct shape that is more like on of those illustrations than the others.
I'm sorry, I think you're wrong. A "floppy" collar will still roll a particular way, as influenced by shape, spread, collar point length, fabric, lining, button placement, etc. Manipulating any of those variables will influence the way the collar rolls. I don't really think that is controversial or debatable.
Again, I'm sorry, but I think this is just wrong. If it you are right, there is little to admire about the old Brooks Brothers shirts. You can get any shirtmaker or decent MTM manufacturer to make you an unlined, soft, floppy collar. It will almost definitely roll. If it doesn't, it will if you move the buttons. The magic the Brooks Brothers collar was how it rolled. It didn't always behave that way, but when it did, it looked great. I don't want to give away more than that.
Anyway, all this subjectivity is just reinforcing my initial suspicion: most people have no meaningful criteria for admiring one roll versus another. Coming from your point-of-view, I see no challenge in getting a good buttondown collar. Any shirtmaker who can take basic instructions would be able to make you a collar that rolls in some way.
I'll be blunt again: this is just patently false. How many experienced bespoke clients on this forum (not counting me) have struggled to get their buttondown collars to roll the way they want them to? Manton and Eustace Tiley come to mind. Vox also. Clearly it is a manipulable characteristic and people with informed tastes tend to prefer specific shapes.
Do you honestly think it is difficult to make an erratically floppy, shape-agnostic collar? I could make you one myself. All by hand, made in USA.
This only proves me point. That collar is consistently like #4. A wide, flat-topped, bell. Yes it will move around a bit, but the fundamental shape remains the same. You could not coax it to look like #2 (no bell), #3 (a spread), or #5 (upper roll curving above the collar band).
This threak delivered before it was even an apple in Foo's eye. I'm predicting 100 pages (minimum). *votes*
Also, I'm fairly certain Foo's choice is 4. There is no bell roll to 2, and Foo hearts the bell roll. 3 is a Borrelli-style Italian bastardization of the BB roll because it spreads, and a spread is no good. 5 is an abomination - among other things, stems show. 1 is the first one and the answer is rarely the first choice. Foo's ideal is 4 - I'd be willing to put a little money on it.
#3 could never be made to take on the bell shape of the others. The spread is cut into the collar shape. The others, I don't know. I think buttoning point is only part of the formula. Also, the point is to determine what you think is "fine."
I won't comment on whether you're right about my preferences--but thank God someone is finally in this thread who isn't being willfully obtuse!
The question then is: which do you think is closest to ideal? Why?
Oh, and one note: I'm not asking people to guess what is ideal to me. I'm genuinely interested in what others consider ideal.
looking again, you are right about three. it's the worst.
2 also suffers from a lack of tie space.
See? We need more Mantons and CaymanS's in this thread. I'm beginning to think this discussion is just too next-level for 99% of the forum. Please, prove me wrong.
I'd like to note that the poll results are already showing some clear consensus preferences. The very vocal camp suggesting that shape doesn't matter is sounding more and more absurd as we go along.
For what it's worth, #2 is not meant to illustrate zero tie space. It is just the way I've seen some vintage Brooks Brothers collars behave. There is zero bell shape. The only "roll" is a subtle amount, right at the collar band. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is commonly seen and praised.
I could live with 1 or 4; maybe even 5 if worn without a tie (how I usually wear BDs).
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