Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, May 21, 2014.
It's not just kids though.
Nice classic fit! Seeing you post is making me feel nostalgic. You used to post often when I first started browsing the forum on the regular.
Supply and demand. If there is no demand for quality rtw from the next generation there won't be a supply for anyone.
CM has gotten a lot better than the old days where if you weren't a Vox/Manton/Foo clone you got reamed. Now we got Roycru's BB swag, DonCologne's Oxxford suits, and EFV's or NickPollica's "sprezz", in addition to Cleav's traditional British or Braddock's Italian aesthetics.
Just need to appreciate them all for what they are worth. I don't like the Engineered Garments look that CottonDockers does, but his fits are top notch, and I don't tell him to go buy some Doma or SLP leathers.
So CausticMan and heldentenour it's cool if you want to follow the trad rules or Vox's giant handbook on menswear, but don't think those are the only correct "rules" or perspective. Right now ya'll are trying to force Monet into Golden Ratios and Fibonacci spirals.
Also, whether your shoes are shined have no bearing on weather your leather is healthy. If you don't believe me, ask DWFII, who is more qualified than anyone on this board on the matter.
First, I want to say that I am becoming more enthused with the idea of completely unstructured suits, such as those @Kent Wang offers (and I guess you do as well?) and that @Tirailleur1 wears so well. A little hesitant, but I think the look that comes with it probably fits how I want to dress on a lot of days.
Second, was this part of you motivation for branching Eidos off Isaia...essentially trying to preserve, not so much an art, but a certain type of dress? Or, to put it less grandly, contributing to its preservation?
I think it will in two ways.
1) It provides more options, and this is almost always good. There is more to appeal to a broader range of folks
2) It may be that you are right and a failure to make drastic, Thom Brownesque (in terms of extent, not necessarily design) will lead to a waning interest of upcoming generations in CM.
It's finally autumn down here, at least for the next couple of days...
No, I'm not. This whole thing was about polishing shoes. Don't conflate it into this giant war of ideologies. I didn't even have a terribly big problem with shoes not being shined. What I had a problem with was your sophomoric, "internety", attempt at snark.
I don't think that has much to do with it at all. You must understand that high quality clothing for men has always been the territory of the few. Yes, there has always been cheaply made versions of these types of clothes that are more accessible but this myth that the past was a better dressed time has no basis in reality. This is not to say that things are't getting more casual, they certainly are. However the main point is that plebeian dress has always been different from patrician in small ways or large.
The simple fact I'll say is this. People buy clothes (mostly) for what is necessary. No amount of pushing tailored clothes on young people will work. The only thing that will get people to buy more tailored clothes is needing to have tailored clothes. Usually for work, but sometimes for play. You can't change social forces with marketing ploys.
i went through an extended period of not having to dress up for work ... so i didn't have much to post
once i stopped posting regularly, it became too much of a hassle to keep up with the thread
plus it was costing me a lot of money because i kept buying clothes and shoes
i poke my head in here once in a while now
claghorn stumbled onto my instagram and liked the photo that i just posted ... which led to me coming back and posting it here
(there's your credit, clag )
Not "calling you out" nor do I care about the current argument going on but I want to respond to your post due to the fact that I feel I owe a debt of gratitude to the people you mentioned (vox/manton/foo) along with people like whnay,iammatt, rjman, AHarris, docholiday, TCHouston, whoopee and a bunch other that have long disappeared.
I understand the thought process behind "its my style, so it can't be wrong" but classic menswear is not a free for all. Whether you want to call them rules, guidelines, framework, historical context etc, there is right and wrong in dressing classically. What the guys that I mentioned did, was show a correct way of dressing. You didn't have to dress like them to get accolades nor were accolades the point. The point was to show classic proportions/color balancing etc and applying it to your style. Many people learned from them and became much better dressers due to the many conversations that were had about cut, fabric, texture etc. Vox in particular was a great resource as he was one that wore bespoke from Italy, England along with new and vintage ready to wear from everywhere. And that's not even mentioning all the helpful PM's that he would send or respond to about dress questions.
The problem with the "there are no rules" approach is that it excuses everything as personal choice. Sneakers with a DB suit? Sprezzatura! A tie that falls 6 inches short of your pants waist? Stylish Individuality! Cargo dress pants? Modern Luxury! etc, etc. There is no problem with dressing however you want, the Earth will still spin on its axis. But when a forum is called Classic Menswear there should be some standard, otherwise there is no learning, there is no advancement, there is no excellence.
The people that you mentioned as being good dressers now would still, for the most part, have gotten accolades in the 'ole days. But most of my learning came from criticism's of my cuts/fits/proportions. You can hate Vox for his "I'm richer than God" approach. You can hate Manton for his "I know everything" approach. And you can hate Whnay/Foo for their "we're not fully grown" approach. But to say that this thread is better when some of the best teachers are no longer here is rather incorrect.
@edmorel not sure I agree but I am on my phone at the moment. I will respond as soon as I get on my laptop.
Clag - Nail hit on head.
Caustic man - Frankly, you don't really know what you are talking about. Its not about plebeian and patrician. Its about the industry being healthier and the general level of quality being higher in the past. There used to be three times as many mills in Biella. There was a time when our factory ONLY produced fully canvassed garments and did much more business. What you seemingly doesn't know or understand is that the tailored industry is dying, quickly. Mills I work with are closing. Manufacturers I work with are going bankrupt. There is no marketing ploy. Eidos exists because I care about the tradition of Southern Italian tailoring and the people behind it. Maybe I'm foolish, but I do think we can effect social forces with sincerity and integrity. I came to the Isaia family with an idea that I hoped would help to allow people like our head cutter Donato (who used to be the head cutter at D'Avenza and has forgotten more about tailoring than anyon this forum knows) to continue to be a custodian of a tradition that an increasingly casual world is finding increasingly unnecessary. The only way for this to work is to look past the traditional (and dwindling in number) customer for the product and try to appeal to new ones without sacrificing what makes our product great in the first place. I'd like to think we are doing a good job of this by showing someone who might not normally think wearing a suit could be cool that it doesn't have to be so serious and can mix in easily with a more casual life.
can we get back to more fit pics? It's like reading a fight between two teenage women.
If the man doesn't want to shine his shoes then fuck it, who cares. No harm done, carry on for fucks sakes
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