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Hip-hop culture hurting NFL

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by mr monty, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. chorse123

    chorse123 Senior member

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    I understand the merengue culture used to be a real problem in Chicago.

    A meringue problem?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. fortune

    fortune Senior member

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    Heh. Maybe I clouded my point. Not all hip-hop artists talk about drugs, sex, money, gangs, and the rest that goes along with your view Roma. Louis Logic, Cage, El-P, Aesop Rock, KRS-One, Atmosphere, and many more, are all good artist that for much of their rhymes/songs, refrain from a lot of what you've said hip hop is about. I'd like to know what artists you're basing your views on, if you don't mind. While I do agree that a lot of it is ridiculous and unneeded, I also think you're saying this based off of one sub-genre or group of artists.
     
  3. Edward Appleby

    Edward Appleby Senior member

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    Even hip-hop artists who do talk about drugs, sex, and violence aren't part of the problem. They're simply reflecting the environment they grew up in. The problem is that most Americans don't give a shit.
     
  4. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    While we're at it, we might as well get rid of Rock music, Jazz, and everything else thats ever been blamed for the downfall of society.

    Oh, and video games!

    And violence on television.

    the list goes on and on.
     
  5. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

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    Even hip-hop artists who do talk about drugs, sex, and violence aren't part of the problem. They're simply reflecting the environment they grew up in.
    I think the artists and music do reflect an existing problem, but don't you think they perpetuate it as well? They wouldn't have as much influence if the audience had a steady diet of alternative messages, but pop culture loves a moral vacuum. I also think a large part of the problem is the amoralists who do their part to legitimize it by making it accessible though mainstream media channels. It's all about the Binjamins, yo.
    The problem is that most Americans don't give a shit.
    Some people perceive attempts to address social pathologies as some sort of bleeding-heart liberal cause. Screw that. I am simply not interested in the creation of thugs, walking the street looking to "jack" me to pay for "joolery", and I do not want uneducated, unemployable layabouts making babies that my tax dollars will end up subsidizing one way or the other. MY life -- MINE -- is much better if they're employed, productive, civilized, law-abiding, tax-paying respectful members of society. Preferably well-attired, but that's not a dealbreaker. Keep your compassionate conservatism. Give me mutually-self-interested pragmatism. Gotta run -- La Bella Bellucci is calling....
     
  6. Homme

    Homme Senior member

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    romafan. this is the problem. you blame everything on hip hop which is a cultural phenomenon created in and by the hood. it's a reflection and result of what goes on in the hood.

    the problems that some black athletes get into are not a result of hip hop. it's a result of whatever they went through that made them make poor decisions--this could be a number of things like poverty, crime and drug infested neighborhoods, racism, troubled family life, etc. for some, professional sports are the ticket out of this situation.

    some of these young men grew up with nothing and are now given millions of dollars and fame, literally overnight--while still in their teens or early 20's.

    so, oj simpson, who keeps getting into trouble, is he the result of evil hip hop? he was a member of gangs and had a horrible childhood, way before hip hop was even invented. he had already retired from a successful professional football career before people even heard of hip hop.

    how about lebron james, at 22, he is someone who is incredibly mature and is a role model for not just young black athletes but all young athletes. he IS hip hop. he is a part of hip hop culture and hip hop is a huge part of him. by your argument, he should be in jail or fighting pitbulls.

    do you see why the "hip hop is destroying america" argument is complete b.s.?


    if you want to stop anyone, not just some black professional athletes, from making shitty decisions, you're gonna have to fix the roots of the problem. these are a poor education system, poverty, joblessness, racism, crime, drugs, broken families, etc.

    hip hop is a response and reaction to this. but people are calling it the cause.



    Agree and well said


    While we're at it, we might as well get rid of Rock music, Jazz, and everything else thats ever been blamed for the downfall of society.

    Oh, and video games!

    And violence on television.

    the list goes on and on.


    And guns! Don't forget guns.
     
  7. Edward Appleby

    Edward Appleby Senior member

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    I think the artists and music do reflect an existing problem, but don't you think they perpetuate it as well? They wouldn't have as much influence if the audience had a steady diet of alternative messages, but pop culture loves a moral vacuum. I also think a large part of the problem is the amoralists who do their part to legitimize it by making it accessible though mainstream media channels. It's all about the Binjamins, yo.


    Kids may act hard because they listen to hip hop, but realistically I reject the notion that music is anything more than a drop in the bucket compared to socioeconomic factors when it comes to youth crime.

    Also, hip hop isn't the only music with what boils down to antisocial messages. Wagner, like a lot of other Romantic music, is highly nationalistic and borderline racist. A lot of jazz is sexualized and chauvinistic. Punk can be sociopathic. I really don't want to live in a world where the only art available is that with solely "wholesome" messages.
     
  8. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

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    Kids may act hard because they listen to hip hop, but realistically I reject the notion that music is anything more than a drop in the bucket compared to socioeconomic factors when it comes to youth crime. Also, hip hop isn't the only music with what boils down to antisocial messages. Wagner, like a lot of other Romantic music, is highly nationalistic and borderline racist. A lot of jazz is sexualized and chauvinistic. Punk can be sociopathic. I really don't want to live in a world where the only art available is that with solely "wholesome" messages.
    Well, I think music and other pop-cultural influences can have a significant part in shaping a kid's outlook in the absence of strong messages to the contrary from their primary circle of influence (i.e., parents, peers), but I think we basically agree that the root problem is some kids are poorly socialized by their parents. And if the problem is their "socio-economic" reality, I'd have to put the lion's share of the emphasis on the "socio-" half of that -- there are plenty of kids who grow up poor in less-than desirable neighborhoods and turn out to be solid citizens. I know something of Wagner's connection to Nazism, but what is borderline racist about the music? And why do you say a lot of jazz is "chauvanistic". I actually don't know that "a lot of it is sexualized" either, but I don't have a problem with 'sexualization' per se anyway, so that's neither here nor there...
     
  9. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    While we're at it, we might as well get rid of Rock music, Jazz, and everything else thats ever been blamed for the downfall of society.

    Oh, and video games!

    And violence on television.

    the list goes on and on.


    I would add soda pop and the internet....
     
  10. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    romafan. this is the problem. you blame everything on hip hop which is a cultural phenomenon created in and by the hood. it's a reflection and result of what goes on in the hood.

    the problems that some black athletes get into are not a result of hip hop. it's a result of whatever they went through that made them make poor decisions--this could be a number of things like poverty, crime and drug infested neighborhoods, racism, troubled family life, etc. for some, professional sports are the ticket out of this situation.

    some of these young men grew up with nothing and are now given millions of dollars and fame, literally overnight--while still in their teens or early 20's.

    so, oj simpson, who keeps getting into trouble, is he the result of evil hip hop? he was a member of gangs and had a horrible childhood, way before hip hop was even invented. he had already retired from a successful professional football career before people even heard of hip hop.

    how about lebron james, at 22, he is someone who is incredibly mature and is a role model for not just young black athletes but all young athletes. he IS hip hop. he is a part of hip hop culture and hip hop is a huge part of him. by your argument, he should be in jail or fighting pitbulls.

    do you see why the "hip hop is destroying america" argument is complete b.s.?


    if you want to stop anyone, not just some black professional athletes, from making shitty decisions, you're gonna have to fix the roots of the problem. these are a poor education system, poverty, joblessness, racism, crime, drugs, broken families, etc.

    hip hop is a response and reaction to this. but people are calling it the cause.


    Sorry to have started a scholarly debate on the origins and social history of hip-hop. [​IMG] My posts were (mostly) in jest. I don't really think hip-hop is destroying America (dubya's doing fine by himself). My main objection to rap is an aesthetic one: I just think it is shitty "music". I'm sure there are some very talented artists in the hip-hop genre. I realize it's very popular, and even good people (like Ed Morel) listen to it and enjoy it. However, I'm too old to appreciate it. My tastes run toward rock 'n roll (real rock 'n roll), blues, jazz, r&b (again, real r&b, not boyz2men), etc. My exposure to rap was in the early '80's. I didn't particulary care for it then and have admittedly made no effort to keep up with it.

    That being said, and baggy pantz & bling aside, I have heard whatever particular flava of rap (I would have called it gangsta, but apparently now it is MAINSTREAM) w/ the mind boggling violence, misogyny, celebration of crime, drug culture, etc. I'll leave it to you and the social scientists to argue cause or effect, but whatever the outcome, I find it truly disturbing. And it's a copout to say 'hey, it just reflects life in the hood, and until the economic disparity and injustice disappears you're alwways going to have it'. That's bullshit - many beleive that rap actually comes out of punk rock, and not black music and the black experience. There have always been poor people making new music, and the musical forms that emerged from those economically disadvantaged 'hoods never came near rap in terms of celebrating violence embracing self-defeating anitsocial behavior. He may look like a blowfish, but read what Stanley Crouch has to say on the subject. [​IMG]

    Now let's spin some GrandMaster Flash and start the party! [​IMG]
     
  11. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    Hip-hop is the target, my friend. And with the help of the NFL I hope to wipe the scourge from the face of this once great land.....

    You are far too stupid and lacking in influence to do either.
     
  12. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    romafan. this is the problem. you blame everything on hip hop which is a cultural phenomenon created in and by the hood. it's a reflection and result of what goes on in the hood.

    the problems that some black athletes get into are not a result of hip hop. it's a result of whatever they went through that made them make poor decisions--this could be a number of things like poverty, crime and drug infested neighborhoods, racism, troubled family life, etc. for some, professional sports are the ticket out of this situation.

    some of these young men grew up with nothing and are now given millions of dollars and fame, literally overnight--while still in their teens or early 20's.

    so, oj simpson, who keeps getting into trouble, is he the result of evil hip hop? he was a member of gangs and had a horrible childhood, way before hip hop was even invented. he had already retired from a successful professional football career before people even heard of hip hop.

    how about lebron james, at 22, he is someone who is incredibly mature and is a role model for not just young black athletes but all young athletes. he IS hip hop. he is a part of hip hop culture and hip hop is a huge part of him. by your argument, he should be in jail or fighting pitbulls.

    do you see why the "hip hop is destroying america" argument is complete b.s.?


    if you want to stop anyone, not just some black professional athletes, from making shitty decisions, you're gonna have to fix the roots of the problem. these are a poor education system, poverty, joblessness, racism, crime, drugs, broken families, etc.

    hip hop is a response and reaction to this. but people are calling it the cause.


    You are far too stupid and lacking in influence to do either.

    I'm not the one who considered moving to Cleveland. [​IMG] Now go play w/ your fiddle...[​IMG]
     
  13. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    I'm not the one who considered moving to Cleveland. [​IMG] Now go play w/ your fiddle...[​IMG]


    That's seriously the best you could do? Well, I'm living in Little Italy right now, lots of "Roma fans" here. I suppose now I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

    You cannot possibly hope to "cleanse" the NFL or any other sports federation by banning hip hop culture or trying to cover it up. It is something fundamental to the existence of black men. What you can do, is to try and modify how the men see the world and how it regulates the choices they make. Book burning, which you are proposing, has never worked. Actually, it's what most of the rappers would want, like any other movement that came before it. So, you work WITH the issue and not against it.
     
  14. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    That's seriously the best you could do? Well, I'm living in Little Italy right now, lots of "Roma fans" here. I suppose now I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

    You cannot possibly hope to "cleanse" the NFL or any other sports federation by banning hip hop culture or trying to cover it up. It is something fundamental to the existence of black men. What you can do, is it try and modify how that culture sees the world and how it regulates the choices they make. Book burning, which you are proposing, has never worked. Actually, it's what most of the rappers would want, like any other movement that came before it. So, you work WITH the issue and not against it.


    Read my post #50, Einstein, and then meet me on the corner of Mott & Kenmare. [​IMG]
     
  15. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    Read my post #50, Einstein, and then meet me on the corner of Mott & Kenmare. [​IMG]

    HAHAAHHA

    That's now the 2nd time some soccer zealot on this website (benecois) has challenged me to a physical fight because I called them a name. I don't even have to insult you, you ridicule yourself simply by waking up in the morning.

    Anyone who says rap came from punk rock should probably examine blues. Misoginy and the "bad man" persona manifested itself in black music far before rap came along. Gangsta rap evolved along with a society that has become increasingly violent. Look at how much more violent movies (made by white men) have become. It isn't simply a black phenomenon, it is a reflection of the desires of the market. Most album sales are going to young white males, if you are refering to most "gangsta" rap.
     
  16. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    HAHAAHHA

    That's now the 2nd time some soccer zealot on this website (benecois) has challenged me to a physical fight because I called them a name. I don't even have to insult you, you ridicule yourself simply by waking up in the morning.


    [​IMG] Good one! You've apparntly found your true talent - calling people names. Maybe you should try doing stand-up. I hear it pays better than the fiddle.....[​IMG]
     
  17. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    [​IMG] Good one! You've appeerntly found your true talent - calling people names. Maybe you should try doing stand-up. I hear it pays better than the fiddle.....[​IMG]

    HAAHA

    So after the physical threat (probably the dumbest you can do on the internet, after invoking Hitler), you are now talking about someone's income?

    Seriously, how small is your penis?
     
  18. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    HAAHA

    So after the physical threat (probably the dumbest you can do on the internet, after invoking Hitler), you are now talking about someone's income?

    Seriously, how small is your penis?


    How old are you? Do you know how to tell when someone is kidding? [​IMG]
     
  19. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    How old are you? Do you know how to tell when someone is kidding? [​IMG]

    Don't back-peddle.
     
  20. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    You are far too stupid and lacking in influence to do either.

    That's seriously the best you could do? Well, I'm living in Little Italy right now, lots of "Roma fans" here. I suppose now I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

    You cannot possibly hope to "cleanse" the NFL or any other sports federation by banning hip hop culture or trying to cover it up. It is something fundamental to the existence of black men. What you can do, is to try and modify how the men see the world and how it regulates the choices they make. Book burning, which you are proposing, has never worked. Actually, it's what most of the rappers would want, like any other movement that came before it. So, you work WITH the issue and not against it.


    HAHAAHHA

    That's now the 2nd time some soccer zealot on this website (benecois) has challenged me to a physical fight because I called them a name. I don't even have to insult you, you ridicule yourself simply by waking up in the morning.

    Anyone who says rap came from punk rock should probably examine blues. Misoginy and the "bad man" persona manifested itself in black music far before rap came along. Gangsta rap evolved along with a society that has become increasingly violent. Look at how much more violent movies (made by white men) have become. It isn't simply a black phenomenon, it is a reflection of the desires of the market. Most album sales are going to young white males, if you are refering to most "gangsta" rap.


    HAAHA

    So after the physical threat (probably the dumbest you can do on the internet, after invoking Hitler), you are now talking about someone's income?

    Seriously, how small is your penis?


    Don't back-peddle.

    I never argue w/ experts on gangsta rap. That being said, I have no idea what your problem is.
     

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