Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Testudo_Aubreii, Sep 25, 2011.
Obama, like the last 9 US presidents, gets his suits made by de Paris.
I said that Cain's coat fit DECENTLY. I did not say that it fit him particularly well.
I did not say that his trousers fit well. I did not even say that they fit him decently.
Cain's coat does not fit like a tent. He is a big man, wearing a coat that's not slim-cut. Coats can fit decently--they can even fit well--without having a slim-fit silhouette. There are many threads on the distinction between fit and silhouette. Or examine the cut of the DB coats Will wears at a asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com. Will's DB coats are not slim-cut, and they fit him exceptionally well. Or check out the excellent fit of Forum member yachtie's numerous DB coats posted on SF.
The length of the coat's sleeves is fine. They hit roughly at the wrist. The shirt sleeve could be a bit longer: it should hit where his thumb begins.
Wearing a four-in-hand tie with a dinner suit is slobbery. Hence, Obama struck a blow for slobbery.
"Major" in the sense that Cain won a a straw poll in one of the biggest states. It is bad for democracy to think, along with most journalists, that everyone besides the #1 and #2 candidates deserves to be ignored.
his DB looks like shit and gives him no shape. i don't care if he's not slim, it should still have shaping
and just for you:
he even has studs.
Add me to the list that says that DB looks terrible, and Obama looks better.
Teger, by that standard, Forum member yachtie's 6x3 DB is dangerously close to fitting like shit. So you must have a low opinion of yachtie and Chris Despos's sense for fit.
You are applying a high standard for fit and cut. According to you, a DB coat looks like shit unless it has noticeable waist suppression. Yet DB coats with little waist suppression have long been considered compatible with DECENT fit. The boxy DB is a classic Savile Row look.
It is easier for a slim man to look good in his clothes.
I was talking about what Obama wore to Saturday's Phoenix Awards. What I said was: At that event, Obama went for slobwear. That claim is not contradicted by Obama wearing proper black tie in the past.
All my opinions only, obviously, but:
1) linked DB does fit significantly better, although still this boxy look is not to my taste.
2) linked DB has higher gorge, which really improves the look of a boxy db on a not-very-tall-and-slim body, which is a dangerous look being attempted by both this db and cain
3) while the black FiH that obama wears isn't exactly "according to the rules" or whatever, he does not look like a slob in it.
If your point is (completely divorced from politics/parties/all that garbage that belongs on another forum), it would be nice if we had more american politicians dressed more like cain in order to set an example for american men, instead of obama, then i can't get behind that.
To make the point, I think we can all agree that both Reagan and Clinton (picking one from each side here) were both consistently much better dressed than Cain here, yes?
Yachtie's DB fits infinitely better and looks better than Cain's, I sincerely hope you are able to see the difference. While Obama is wearing the 'incorrect' FIH with a dinner jacket, its not an altogether uncommon look lately (unfortunately). While I don't care for it, calling it 'slobbery' is ridiculous.
In fact, I think this would be closer to slobbery, wouldn't you agree?
Is nobody going to comment on the horrible pale yellow tie on a white shirt that Cain is wearing in the original post??????
1) How so? I strongly agree that yachtie's coat fits better than Cain's. But does it fit so much better that while Cain's coat fits like shit, yachtie's fits fine? If yes, then Teger and Profacio must explain why the fit is so much better. If no, then they must say either that the fit of yachtie's coat is dangerously close to shitty, or that Cain's coat fits decently.
2) Gorge height is unquestionably a matter of silhouette, not of fit, which is what's under debate. What I'm maintaining is that Cain's coat fits decently. (I admit that I introduced the question of waist suppression, which is a matter of both silhouette and fit.)
3) We disagree here. I think a tux with shiny facings worn with a FIH looks dreadful, and hence slobbish. This isn't (for me) a matter of propriety: I'm a libertarian when it comes to dress codes. It's a matter of the aesthetics of black tie. I've tried to explain why in this SF post. In a nutshell, the FIH breaks up the black-bordered white triangle.
I'd certainly agree that Reagan dressed better than Cain. His suit trousers fit properly, for one thing. His coats fit him well. I don't remember that Clinton ever wore coats that fit markedly better than Cain's.
My overall point is: Cain wears decent-looking DB coats, which thanks to his Florida win, a larger segment of the population and US politicians will now see. In a country where hardly any other politician does wear them, that advances the cause of stylish dress. Obama dressed dreadfully for the Phoenix awards. That hurt the cause of stylish dress.
How about it Teger? Profacio? Can you explain why the FIT of yachtie's coat is "infinitely better"?
Well, for instance, Cain's DB is definitely too long in my opinion. yachtie's is not. I don't know where the semantic line is drawn between 'fit' and 'silhouette', and also I don't understand why when discussing whether or not this is a "decent-looking" DB, fit matters but silhouette doesn't, but to me the low peaks on cain's db really throws the whole thing off. I do like DBs in general, but I don't think this one particularly advances their cause.
I think you're also being loose with terms in equating "slobbish" and "dreadful" in regards to Obama's FiH tie. First, its dreadfulness is your opinion, and isn't shared by all, and second, dreadfulness is not slobbishness. It's not as if he's got a big mustard stain on his tie. While I too prefer a black bow tie with a tuxedo, I don't think that this looks dreadful on Obama, nor do I think he hurts the case of stylish dress by wearing it.
Great, thanks. Re: length. Maybe, but notice that the photo of Cain is almost from underneath; looks like the photographer was kneeling. The photo of yachtie is almost from above, as if a very tall person were aiming the camera down. A photo from beneath is going to make the coat hem look longer, while one from above is going to make it look shorter. Judging from other photos of Cain on an internet search, I don't think the difference is significant enough to add much to the case for "infinitely better."
Strictly speaking, we're only discussing the fit of the coats. Teger and Profacio claimed that the fit of Cain's coat was shitty: I denied it, and said it fit decently. That's what's at issue.
"Fits decently" and "fits well" don't mean the same thing, at least to me. Maybe to Teger and Profacio they do.
That some people disagree that wearing a tux with a FIH is dreadful isn't a strong reason for doubting that it's dreadful. Some people disagree that Shakespeare has literary merit, and some others deny that Titian was a good painter. But that doesn't do much to help show that Shakespeare lacks literary merit, or that Titian was not a good painter. As for "slobbish dress": strictly speaking, you may be right. But as used on this Forum, "slobbish dress" has the dictionary meaning of "lazy and slovenly in dress." "Slovenly dress" in turn means "untidy and/or dirty in dress; careless in dress; unattractive in dress." I am arguing that Obama's ensemble was untidy and careless because the FIH breaks up the triangle in an ugly, eye-jarring way. If that is right, then by definition it was slobbish. You can dress like a slob and still have immaculately clean clothes.
Here's another try at why a tux with a shiny black FIH and a white shirt looks dreadul. It makes your torso look as though someone had bisected it on the long axis. That visual effect destroys the presentation of the masculine shoulders-to-hips triangle which black tie is designed to emphasize.
Ok, at this point I think we have devolved into a battle of semantics which isn't really interesting anymore, at least not to me. We can agree that Cain's DB is less than perfect. I don't know how "decent" and 'shitty" are defined here. My statements were independent of the others and just said the jacket didn't look good, I guess I meant a combination of fit and styling, but whatever the case, I don't care for it personally. We can agree that a bowtie is better for a tuxedo than a fih. Whether that's just unstylish or "slovenly" is I guess just a matter of semantics and I don't really care. On the whole, personally I still like Obama's look more than Cain's, but we have both agreed they are both flawed. Further, comparing fits across very different body types is fraught with peril and might just lead to confusion.
I Have to say that given your insistence of 'slobbery' on Obama's part, particularly given his relatively good reputation for dress (as a politician), I wondered if you had an alternative agenda for your post, rather than simply expressing outrage over his FIH.
If not, that's fine. There have been many exhaustive and drawn out discussions about black tie dress here over the years, which pretty much lead most folks to just state 'the rules are the rules' and reference blacktieguide.com. Else useless semantics get tossed about ad nauseum and the same comments are regurgitated again and again. Cheers.
Thanks, Profacio. Nope, no hidden political agenda here. At least, no right-wing political agenda. My agenda here is simply to advance the cause of stylish dress and denounce slobbish dress, particularly when worn by powerful people on public occasions in ways that'll lead many non-SFers to conclude that it's stylish.
I can't agree that semantics are useless. The meaning we give to our words shapes the way we think.
I agree that blacktieguide.com is a great list of the rules of black tie. It's done far more for the cause of stylish dress than most of us, myself included. What I tried to do in that post I linked to at 24 above was to explain the aesthetic reasons behind the rules of black tie.
P.S. I think Joe Biden and Rick Perry generally dress far better than Obama. I'd put Cain ahead of Obama by a bit.
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