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Hazing in Greek Life

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Another New Yorker, May 12, 2011.

  1. Bane

    Bane Active Member

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    Much less dangerous. Probably much less dangerous than taking 18-19 shots in an hour at a party because your best friend dared you.

    Also 50 beers over 12 hours isn't really that heavy of a consumption rate (I mean it's heavy, but on the danger level, it's pretty low).


    Nothing seems "that dangerous" until it is. Couple frat boys on our campus didn't survive pledging. A few students went to prison, others expelled and so on.

    Unfortunately, it's a group of immature uneducated inexperienced individuals pushing limits. They don't know where the line is & once they've crossed it, it's much too late.

    Call it "bonding" if everyone comes out alive. Call it the biggest mistake of your life otherwise.
     
  2. MrG

    MrG Senior member

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    I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to a literal night. Like from dusk till dawn. It's still a difficult task. The puking is just to make it easier to consume, not for health reasons. I imagine doing it without puking is still significantly worse though. But given +/- 12 hours, that's less than 3 natty light's an hour. With one drink to be fully processed in an hour, that doesn't seem too unbearable. And I'm sure there was spillage--kegs are messy like that. I originally calculated a keg to be 50 and that's far worse. But honestly, my own experience was much more tilted towards humiliating than alcohol.

    The alcohol get's a lot of media attention because that's where the most (and only) visibly dangerous case of hazing resides. In reality, such high consumption rates is a rarity during pledgeship, and although there is a lot of alcohol, it is much more within the realm of just getting the kid drunk nightly or every few nights. 10-15, depending on how many it takes.

    Anyhow, I'm much more curious about what y'all think about the rest of the experience though. I'm referring to the legalities of the voluntary humiliation we, those before us, and those after us choose to undergo. Can the government tell us that we cannot strip on private property, carry an umbrella over another person for a day, serve brothers lunch, or even eat dog food? Keep in mind the only coercion there is peer pressure. One is free to drop out at any time.


    Yes, I will agree that having 12 hours to do it is less dumb, but it's still pretty stupid. Forcing people to drink is always a bad idea.

    I think madmadigan captures it very well in his post. There's nothing wrong with the ticky tacky stuff like holding umbrellas and the like, but the drinking stuff is not OK. If hazing laws prohibit the former, that's pretty weak, but I think prohibiting the latter is probably a good idea.
     
  3. MrG

    MrG Senior member

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    OP, just out of curiousity, what Southern school do you attend?

    I understand if you'd rather not mention it by name, but I'd be interested if you don't mind. I can guess where Ole War Skule went, but not you. I can't help but wonder how they compare.
     
  4. kxk

    kxk Well-Known Member

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    did it, never would do it again, but enjoyed the hell out of it and look back on it fondly.
    i had a lot of doubts going in, but it was definitely one of the best experiences of my life.
    there's definitely a lot of possibly dangerous forced alcohol consumption, but other than that, my pledge experience was not at all "dangerous" by design--although for things like kidnappings, things would get dangerous but i don't think you can blame that as hazing.
    even the "humiliating" stuff is not really humiliating if you're not a tool. "oh noe theyre making me wear a sundress and breakdance in the middle of the quad while making seniors sandwiches! i'm so humiliated and offended that i'm going to kill myself!".... please.

    and the whole keg thing, we did that too, had a time limit of 8 hours for a class of 15. with controlled vomiting, which is itself not a good thing, but not something that's going to kill you in and of itself, it's really not a huge deal. would definitely not be one of my top 3 drunkendest nights.
     
  5. Another New Yorker

    Another New Yorker Senior member

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    Yes, I will agree that having 12 hours to do it is less dumb, but it's still pretty stupid. Forcing people to drink is always a bad idea.

    I think madmadigan captures it very well in his post. There's nothing wrong with the ticky tacky stuff like holding umbrellas and the like, but the drinking stuff is not OK. If hazing laws prohibit the former, that's pretty weak, but I think prohibiting the latter is probably a good idea.


    Y'all are probably right then. I'm rewriting the risk management and pledge programs for next year, you guys are probably a good splash of cold water given the culture I'm immersed in. Not trying to get anyone killed; just trying to have some tomfoolery and hardship. Alcohol on a brutally high level is probably a bad idea irresponsible to my brothers locally and nationally, although I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pledges to handle what I (and I'm only 5'5) can do on a typical Saturday night.
     
  6. CouttsClient

    CouttsClient Senior member

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    Los Angeles/ DC/ The Gulf Coast/ Airplane...
  7. Ole War Skule

    Ole War Skule Active Member

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    No it was fun, don't get me wrong. I had a lot more fun than most people would otherwise in college. But I graduated 2 1/2 years ago...my senior year I was still paying dues but wasn't really involved anymore. The petty shit gets old.

    I made some life long friends through my fraternity, was exposed to a few people with different points of view I probably wouldn't have ever associated myself with...but honestly, you're in a house with 130 other guys, you won't know all of them. Hell, I only keep in touch with like 6 of my pledge brothers with any sort of regularity...out of over 40.

    Looking back, the things we did, the way we acted...it was all pretty stupid-a bunch of 19-22 year old guys acting way more important than they really were. Take from it what you can, give back in some way, replace yourself with a couple quality guys during rush, but don't ever take it too seriously.
     
  8. madmadigan

    madmadigan Senior member

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    I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to a literal night. Like from dusk till dawn. It's still a difficult task. The puking is just to make it easier to consume, not for health reasons. I imagine doing it without puking is still significantly worse though. But given +/- 12 hours, that's less than 3 natty light's an hour. With one drink to be fully processed in an hour, that doesn't seem too unbearable. And I'm sure there was spillage--kegs are messy like that. I originally calculated a keg to be 50 and that's far worse. But honestly, my own experience was much more tilted towards humiliating than alcohol.

    The alcohol get's a lot of media attention because that's where the most (and only) visibly dangerous case of hazing resides. In reality, such high consumption rates is a rarity during pledgeship, and although there is a lot of alcohol, it is much more within the realm of just getting the kid drunk nightly or every few nights. 10-15, depending on how many it takes.

    Anyhow, I'm much more curious about what y'all think about the rest of the experience though. I'm referring to the legalities of the voluntary humiliation we, those before us, and those after us choose to undergo. Can the government tell us that we cannot strip on private property, carry an umbrella over another person for a day, serve brothers lunch, or even eat dog food? Keep in mind the only coercion there is peer pressure. One is free to drop out at any time.



    Why any freshman would want to join a frat is beyond me.

    Being humilated by someone 1-3 years/grades ahead of you? Really? So somehow getting the approval of someone who is slightly older than you is something worth doing?

    Don't take offense to this, but at 18; you don't know shit.

    19-21 still pretty much don't know shit.

    And I'm not saying you personally, I'm saying everyone at that age. You think you do, but you don't.

    I guess some people have a certain type of personality that they are willing to let an idiot humilate them... i've never been that type. I have had many close friends over the years, friends that would be there for me in a pinch, and would fight back to back with me if we had to, and I never had to be someones errand boy.

    As far as the question about the government or making laws against it, no. People will ALWAYS do what they want, and free choice/free will is important. But I'm all for laws/fines/breaking up Frat's if they are requiring any type of dangerous shit that involves alcohol/drugs. We don't need moron 19 and 20 year olds getting 18 year olds to drink till they die.
     
  9. Joffrey

    Joffrey Senior member

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    I don't have a problem with hazing. Just as long as no body dies or is maimed.
     
  10. Another New Yorker

    Another New Yorker Senior member

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    Why any freshman would want to join a frat is beyond me.

    Being humilated by someone 1-3 years/grades ahead of you? Really? So somehow getting the approval of someone who is slightly older than you is something worth doing?

    Don't take offense to this, but at 18; you don't know shit.

    19-21 still pretty much don't know shit.

    And I'm not saying you personally, I'm saying everyone at that age. You think you do, but you don't.

    I guess some people have a certain type of personality that they are willing to let an idiot humilate them... i've never been that type. I have had many close friends over the years, friends that would be there for me in a pinch, and would fight back to back with me if we had to, and I never had to be someones errand boy.

    As far as the question about the government or making laws against it, no. People will ALWAYS do what they want, and free choice/free will is important. But I'm all for laws/fines/breaking up Frat's if they are requiring any type of dangerous shit that involves alcohol/drugs. We don't need moron 19 and 20 year olds getting 18 year olds to drink till they die.


    I don't want to get into this debate here, but here are the main incentives and reasons in the South. Whether or not they would drive you is different.

    Supremely better housing.
    People far more like myself in large numbers (true I can make these friends normally but there's nothing wrong with this fundamentally).
    Best parties on campus.
    Family tradition.
    Networking opportunities and beyond.
    Sorority mixers.
    Great breaks: Deep sea fishing, summer houses in Cabo, etc.
    Unlimited alcohol -- no worries about fake IDs or any of that bullshit.

    My rationale for going through the process:
    I'm respecting my alumni by going through what they went through to wear their letters.
    I'm earning my lot in life. Once you've been humiliated to the max you have nothing left to fear. Nothing is too embarrassing to joke about.
    Hardship truly does build closeness.
    Any of my brothers would and have backed me in a fight. One drove me 7 hours home for a family emergency and I had only known him well for a week. He is now one of my (dozens of) best friends.
     
  11. CJones

    CJones Well-Known Member

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    Jan 14, 2011
    Cool. Humiliation leads to fearlessness and also contributes to earning one's lot in life. Never know what I'm going to learn on the styleforvmz.
     
  12. MrG

    MrG Senior member

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    Y'all are probably right then. I'm rewriting the risk management and pledge programs for next year, you guys are probably a good splash of cold water given the culture I'm immersed in. Not trying to get anyone killed; just trying to have some tomfoolery and hardship. Alcohol on a brutally high level is probably a bad idea irresponsible to my brothers locally and nationally, although I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pledges to handle what I (and I'm only 5'5) can do on a typical Saturday night.

    This is very reasonable. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the "be a senior brother's go-fer" type hazing, but anything that's dangerous should be off limits. You just can't truly control it enough to make it safe.

    Also, props to you for actually listening. Like so many "advice" threads, this could have turned into a flame war with you defending an untenable position, but you actually paid attention to the advice and heeded it. I respect that.
     
  13. Another New Yorker

    Another New Yorker Senior member

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    This is very reasonable. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the "be a senior brother's go-fer" type hazing, but anything that's dangerous should be off limits. You just can't truly control it enough to make it safe. Also, props to you for actually listening. Like so many "advice" threads, this could have turned into a flame war with you defending an untenable position, but you actually paid attention to the advice and heeded it. I respect that.
    Thanks a lot. I'm happy I sought out advice here--had I gone to Totalfratmove I probably would have gotten "HAZE THEM TILL THEY DIE" and had I gone to greekchat I would have gotten "Buy them pizza and gifts!" A quick link for all of you. Haters will be repulsed and Greeks might look back to the good ol' days. They captured it fairly accurately in W and it hasn't changed too much since his day.
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  14. ChicagoMediaMan

    ChicagoMediaMan Senior member

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    Most of the hazing I endured when I went through it in the fall of 1999 was mostly mind-related. I was never forced to drink or do anything too stupid.
     
  15. BP348

    BP348 Senior member

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    I was in my 30's when I finally went to college. Don't know what the Frats did and really had no desire to join as they had nothing to offer me.

    I'm with most of the other older posters here, the stupid stuff is pretty harmless but the alcohol stuff is not. But I'm guessing it will take the OP a few years before he reaches a level where he realizes this.

    BTW I guess I never would have made it because once I puke I'm done. I've never been able to puke and then go back to drinking.
     
  16. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    alcohol is not the only way in which hazing is dangerous. a fraternity at my school played a game where they took all their pledges out in the woods, tied glowsticks to them, and had them run around while brothers with bats swung at them. some kid ended up rupturing a kidney and almost bleeding to death.
     
  17. Another New Yorker

    Another New Yorker Senior member

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    alcohol is not the only way in which hazing is dangerous. a fraternity at my school played a game where they took all their pledges out in the woods, tied glowsticks to them, and had them run around while brothers with bats swung at them. some kid ended up rupturing a kidney and almost bleeding to death.

    Really?? It gets physical usually but that's just sustaining the cold, an ice bath, or maybe being thrown down some stairs. There's chance for serious damage especially with the last one, but given they aren't being taken by surprise it physical hazing should never approach death. The top tier would never go that far. Must be some uppity mid tier fraternity...
     
  18. Another New Yorker

    Another New Yorker Senior member

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    How on earth is it paying for our friends. The dues we pay pay for housing, chef, booze, party spaces, busses, etc. Just as an independent might go to the the liquor store for a bottle of Jack Daniels, a fraternity goes to the liquor store to swipe through a a few crates of maker's mark. Our friends are made when we get to know them for free during rush and so on and so forth. The money spent goes to paying for concrete things.

    Thanks for your insightful contribution though.
     
  19. acidboy

    acidboy Senior member

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    Don't take offense to this, but at 18; you don't know shit.

    19-21 still pretty much don't know shit.

    And I'm not saying you personally, I'm saying everyone at that age. You think you do, but you don't.



    My rationale for going through the process:
    I'm respecting my alumni by going through what they went through to wear their letters.
    I'm earning my lot in life. Once you've been humiliated to the max you have nothing left to fear. Nothing is too embarrassing to joke about.
    Hardship truly does build closeness.


    [​IMG]

    ++++

    couple of people from my high school were convicted of homicide in the early 90s for the death of a pledge in their law school frat. there was just mild physicality (compared to other fraternities) but they didn't know the guy had some heart condition or something, and he just dropped dead.
     
  20. HgaleK

    HgaleK Senior member

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    I don't think highly of frats, but I'm a firm believer in hazing. It inevitably gets out of hand, but it's good fun until then and provides a great way to bond.

    Note: haven't read the rest of the thread.
     

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