Hand lasted vs machine lasted

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Tidybeard, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    DWFII, I've enjoyed your posts about the fine details of a truely "hand" made shoe. Perhaps you can enlighten us on what you perceive are the advantages/disadvantages of handmade versus machine-equivalent of various steps of the shoe making process; steps such as clicking, sewing the leather, lasting...etc.
    I've got nothing against machines per se. I use sewing machines, skiving machines, splitting machines, etc.. The danger is that those people operating them...either directly or as managers, owners, etc....become as mindless as the machines themselves. And my real gripe is that people...some here, even...don't want to see the differences or the compromises that are embraced when machines are substituted for skill and intelligence. Witness Toyota. As a previous poster mentioned when a shoe is handlasted, accommodations to the leather itself can be made. That's significantly different than making accommodations to the machine or the operator or a quota. Or making th eleather accommodate itself to the machine, operator, etc.. No two pieces of leather...say vamps...are identical in temper or stretch. Even if cut directly opposite one another across the backbone. That means one vamp may stretch more than the other. Or it may stretch more in one direction. Or one side. Even a single vamp can have such variations across its breadth. The hand laster sees and adjusts for this. Despite what has been proposed I don't see any machine...even one imbued with an AI to guide it...being able to make such qualified and subjective judgments without the same experience and perceptions (visual, tactile, etc.) that a maker has had. I wouldn't gainsay any company the right to market and make shoes to meet a a market. Even call them "hand lasted" if such equivocation will be tolerated or ignored by the consumer. All I've ever said, and am saying, is that if anyone...myself included...is going to prattle on about quality or how wonderful a shoe is they should be at least aware of the reality. Words mean something...else we are all fools declaiming our ignorance right here on Style Forum. "Quality" means something. "Handmade" means something. And not something else.
     


  2. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    I knew you'd jump in here. It's terribly boring old boy...so very predictable you know.[​IMG]

    You mean, machine-like?

    I mean, I'm a trout (I'll rise to the fly every time) and I don't make any bones about it. But you're a steak and just saying "I'm a trout, not a steak, I'm a trout not a steak" over and over again won't answer come Friday.

    I'm a trout...and a steak.

    I know. I have just blown your mind.


    - B
     


  3. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    And not something else.

    Does this mean that you are going to re-gift the Roomba that I gave you for Christmas?

    [​IMG]


    - B
     


  4. Shikar

    Shikar Senior member

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    I approve this thread.[​IMG]

    Regards.
     


  5. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I'm a trout...and a steak. I know. I have just blown your mind. - B
    That's easily done...I'm just a simple shoemaker. I hope I didn't offend you...all I meant to say was that you're obviously a reasonable man...easy-going, accommodating, comfortable with compromise. Me...I'm just an auld crabbit who's never been fond of kabuki. [​IMG] Tioraidh
     


  6. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    That's easily done...I'm just a simple shoemaker.

    I hope I didn't offend you...all I meant to say was that you're obviously a reasonable man...easy-going, accommodating, comfortable with compromise.

    Me...I'm just an auld crabbit who's never been fond of kabuki.

    Tioraidh


    Don't worry, I am nearly impossible to offend. I only go ballistic at the sight of full breaking trousers or breached levies.

    Manton's 25K Party is coming up shortly, and one of the events is that those of us with Vass and those Austrian shoes are going to wear them and violently kick our EGs, Lobbs, Westons, Aldens and so on into a landfill that I am having dug just for this purpose.

    We are then going to douse the pile with Corvoisier and set it aflame. Those members with any Celtic blood will then do their River Dances.


    - B
     


  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Don't worry, I am nearly impossible to offend. I only go ballistic at the sight of full breaking trousers or breached levies. Manton's 25K Party is coming up shortly, and one of the events is that those of us with Vass and those Austrian shoes are going to wear them and violently kick our EGs, Lobbs, Westons, Aldens and so on into a landfill that I am having dug just for this purpose. We are then going to douse the pile with Corvoisier and set it aflame. Those members with any Celtic blood will then do their River Dances. - B
    If you're going to go to that kind of trouble, forget the Courvoisier (or toss it into the conflagration)...and toast them all with Laphroig (Quarter Cask, if you've got it) . That's the manly drink, laddie. Bog-water and smoke. And leave off the painted masks and the tabis and the lacquered bamboo chest plate...much too measure4d and affected, don't you think?. Give me a ceilidh.
     


  8. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    Manton's 25K Party is coming up shortly, and one of the events is that those of us with Vass and those Austrian shoes are going to wear them and violently kick our EGs, Lobbs, Westons, Aldens and so on into a landfill that I am having dug just for this purpose.

    We are then going to douse the pile with Corvoisier and set it aflame. Those members with any Celtic blood will then do their River Dances.


    - B


    i should hurry up to send manton's paprika, so he can make the kick off, but typhoon class is not easy get by these days.
     


  9. furo

    furo Senior member

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    ^^^ The sarcasm is getting pretty thick in this thread.

    I've seen hand lasting done in a factory now, and I'm sure that when it comes to machine vs hand lasting, it will always come down to the skill of the man and the accuracy of the machine. I'm guessing the best hand-laster out there can do just as good or better than the best lasting machine. But in all honesty, how can one judge the quality of a hand lasted shoe? Just the fact that it's been done this way does not speak anything about its quality.
     


  10. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    Vox,

    I would like to take a moment and suggest Perrier Jouet - Non vintage, its my disposable alcohol of choice, since I prefer champagne.
     


  11. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    Vox,

    I would like to take a moment and suggest Perrier Jouet - Non vintage, its my disposable alcohol of choice, since I prefer champagne.


    I'm unclear if it can be set aflame though. You should try, and then report back.


    - B
     


  12. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    I'm unclear if it can be set aflame though. You should try, and then report back.


    - B


    Mix it with gasoline first.

    Dont forget to douse the flame with S. Pellegrino, you may need a large size for manton shoes, but the 8.45 oz should be good for tomassos.
     


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    ^^^ The sarcasm is getting pretty thick in this thread. I've seen hand lasting done in a factory now, and I'm sure that when it comes to machine vs hand lasting, it will always come down to the skill of the man and the accuracy of the machine. I'm guessing the best hand-laster out there can do just as good or better than the best lasting machine. But in all honesty, how can one judge the quality of a hand lasted shoe? Just the fact that it's been done this way does not speak anything about its quality.
    Sure it does...simply because it indicates that there is a human being involved in the process and in understanding the necessities and demands of the leather and the patterns and the last. And that there's a level of skill... acquired through years of experience...being brought to the game. What's more it says the maker hasn't succumbed to the expediencies of quantity (vs. quality) and all the accompanying expediencies of implementing a regimen of hurry-up. And no, it doesn't guarantee quality or even a quality job of lasting but it's not just a repetitive motion either.
     


  14. Tidybeard

    Tidybeard Senior member

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    Thank you all, informative thread.

    DWFII, do you have any views on the overall quality of Trickers hand lasted shoes please?

    I wore the shoes today and they're extremely comfortable. I'd post a picture but the sight of a full-on double soled orangey-tan Trickers derby would cause instant and painful death amongst the skinny shoe brigade[​IMG]
     


  15. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    But in all honesty, how can one judge the quality of a hand lasted shoe? Just the fact that it's been done this way does not speak anything about its quality.
    one can, it's not a hundred percent ratio, but you can see and "feel" it. ideally or solely in person and not from pics on the interwebz.
     


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