Hand lasted vs machine lasted

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Tidybeard, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Furo - You have still missed the point. All other things being equal, in essence, a hand lasted shoe, done correctly, will be better because the human laster makes judgments about the leather, etc. during the lasting process that a machine cannot. Human lasting machine operators can make judgements on the set up, but once that shoe is in the machine, the action is done and it won't be changed. The hand laster has the ability to make changes corrections etc. based upon his judgment of what he sees during the lasting process. The results are not going to be equal. In addition, DWFII has been talking about other things that you cannot see..such as gemming..that turn machine lasted shoes, or even some hand lasted shoes into lower quality. You may not be able to see the difference, but that doesn't mean that it is not there, nor does it mean that they are equal. Steve Squyres, the Cornell astronomer in charge of the Mars Rover project said it best - he was asked in a news conference whether he would prefer to make the Mars exploration with humans or the rovers, and he immediately said humans because humans can make judgements about what to do, where to go, how to navigate, etc. in the space of a few seconds that would take the people on earth working the rovers a month or more to do. But, it is far more costly for humans to make the trip and so you substitute machines for humans for expediency sake. The rovers are absolutlely fantasic and have done a marvelous job, but they are only a substitute for humans.
    +1000 [​IMG]
     


  2. furo

    furo Senior member

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    Furo - You have still missed the point. All other things being equal, in essence, a hand lasted shoe, done correctly, will be better because the human laster makes judgments about the leather, etc. during the lasting process that a machine cannot.

    Sorry, but all things being equal, you're wrong.

    The point is, if done correctly, the results of both methods will be equal. Note the key words in the sentence "if done correctly."

    Your point about a human making judgements immediately implies that the machine would be doing something incorrectly whereas the human does not. So your point is thus moot.
     


  3. furo

    furo Senior member

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    I can't decide whether to put you on the block list or not.

    Be my guest. In fact, I prefer that.

    Then maybe you'll just see the exact same point that Bengal Stripe (someone who's opinion actually counts to you) made here when he said:


    Actually, I don’t think that that particular ‘how-it's-done’ is important at all. Nor is it important whether a shoe is hand- or machine lasted as long as it is lasted correctly.
     


  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Be my guest. In fact, I prefer that. Then maybe you'll just see the exact same point that Bengal Stripe (someone who's opinion actually counts to you) made here when he said:
    There's no hope is there? You're a lawyer and I'm a just a simple shoemaker. And for all I admire Bengal-Stripe...he is not a shoemaker, either.
     


  5. furo

    furo Senior member

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    There's no hope is there?

    I guess not. You should block me.

    I also find it funny that in bengal's very same post he makes the analogy regarding a haircut, and yet when I bring up pottery to make a similar point, you deride it as non-sequitur

    You're a lawyer and I'm a just a simple shoemaker.

    I'm no lawyer.

    And for all I admire Bengal-Stripe...he is not a shoemaker, either.

    That's right, which reminds me of your previous quote here:
    Those who have never made shoes don't get a voice in this...neither do those who have only casually toured a workshop or factory.
     


  6. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    Sorry, but all things being equal, you're wrong.

    The point is, if done correctly, the results of both methods will be equal. Note the key words in the sentence "if done correctly."

    Your point about a human making judgments immediately implies that the machine would be doing something incorrectly whereas the human does not. So your point is thus moot.


    Doing something less then perfectly does not make it incorrect if you consider that there is a scale between perfect and acceptable. Leather is a material that is not perfectly consistent, it will have sections that stretch easier then other areas, a machine is not likely to compensate for this as easily as a human.

    I doubt the technology is available to the shoe making industry that would be capable of making those sorts of changes based on individual material characteristics, but I certainly could be wrong.
     


  7. furo

    furo Senior member

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    Doing something less then perfectly does not make it incorrect if you consider that there is a scale between perfect and acceptable. Leather is a material that is not perfectly consistent, it will have sections that stretch easier then other areas, a machine is not likely to compensate for this as easily as a human.

    No disagreement there.

    But note the words you used: "machine is not likely" - which immediately takes the discussion in a different direction, i.e. the probability that the hand lasted shoe is better, and not whether the hand lasted shoe is intrinsically better.
     


  8. LynahFaithful

    LynahFaithful Senior member

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    Sorry, but all things being equal, you're wrong.

    The point is, if done correctly, the results of both methods will be equal. Note the key words in the sentence "if done correctly."

    Your point about a human making judgements immediately implies that the machine would be doing something incorrectly whereas the human does not. So your point is thus moot.


    Sorry, but you are wrong. The results where both are done correctly will never be equal. The human can make judgments, the machine cannot. Period.

    My point about machines is that they cannot make judgments. That does not imply that they do things incorrectly. They do exactly what they are told to do and therefore cannot be "wrong". My point is not moot.
     


  9. RJman

    RJman Posse Member Dubiously Honored

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    furo:

    That cat will never solve the Rubik's cube. [​IMG]
     


  10. furo

    furo Senior member

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    Sorry, but you are wrong. The results where both are done correctly will never be equal. The human can make judgments, the machine cannot. Period.

    My point about machines is that they cannot make judgments. That does not imply that they do things incorrectly. They do exactly what they are told to do and therefore cannot be "wrong". My point is not moot.


    What? So now your argument is that no matter what the machine does, its end result is "correct?" That a machine can't go wrong?

    Am I right in interpreting your statement? Because if so, I'm not going down this rabbit hole.

    Let's be clear. The term correctly applies to the end result, i.e. the last itself, not whether or not the machine did "what it was told to do."

    According to your logic, the machine can never have a "correct" result because in ALL CASES, it failed to account for the "judgements" that the human would have made (assuming the human makes such judgements 100% of the time, and in the correct manner). Is this what you're saying?

    Because if you believe a human is making the correct judgements about the leather 100% of the time during the lasting process, I've got a boat to sell you.

    And if he doesn't make 100% correct judgements about the leather, we are back to my original point about the probability of quality vs intrinsic quality.
     


  11. furo

    furo Senior member

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    furo:

    That cat will never solve the Rubik's cube. [​IMG]


    Who says he's trying to solve it? [​IMG]
     


  12. RJman

    RJman Posse Member Dubiously Honored

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    Who says he's trying to solve it? [​IMG]

    He looks like he is concentrating very hard on it. Maybe I jumped to conclusions.
     


  13. furo

    furo Senior member

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    He looks like he is concentrating very hard on it. Maybe I jumped to conclusions.

    You know what? I'm not sure if that's even a male cat
     


  14. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    I wearing Edward Greens today.

    I will post here if they detonate.


    - B
     


  15. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    No disagreement there.

    But note the words you used: "machine is not likely" - which immediately takes the discussion in a different direction, i.e. the probability that the hand lasted shoe is better, and not whether the hand lasted shoe is intrinsically better.


    Well furo, nothing is set in stone when dealing with inconsistencies in material and ability. An excellent shoe maker, as well as a fine tuned machine will keep that to a narrow range.

    DWFII said it best when he said that an excellent shoe maker will not have to heat the leather to have it form to the last, but the machine may require that.
     


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