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Gun Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by tiecollector, Aug 10, 2007.

  1. FLMountainMan

    FLMountainMan Well-Known Member

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    I suppose if you expect your house to be assaulted by a large criminal gang, one of its civilianized counteparts would make a sound choice. Otherwise I'm not sure what it is first-choice for.

    It could happen. Haven't you ever watched the A-Team? I always keep an FN FAL, a welding torch, an old-but-still-usable tractor, a plan I would love to see come together, and a glass of milk around; just in case my small town is overrun by a large gang of rough-looking white guys. My aim has never been too hot, but the bad guys always seem to have a jump a lot when things explode.
     
  2. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Well-Known Member

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    FWIW, I have never heard of "special bullets with off-set center." I don't claim omniscience about firearms matters, but that's a new one on me. How do they work? How would you get any accuracy from such a thing?

    BTW, when I counseled the OP to start out with a .22, I was not advocating it as a self-defense weapon. It was mainly a learning tool. (And, they're always a lot of fun--and cheap--to shoot.)


    Imagine bullet exiting barrel and flying on a brink of it's balance, the moment it comes in contact with anything it starts making summersaults.
    That is how it works. It was tested by both Soviet and US military but never found wide use as it does not have effective penetration when it comes to thick walls. However it is very bad for human targets.

    As far as Ar-15 vs. AK-47 .
    AK-47 is a machine gun!
    AR-15 is an automatic rifle!
    AK-47 comes in 7.62 and 5.65 calibers. So let's compare apples to apples.

    P.S. In terms of maintenance anything can be compared, I guess: so AK-47 consists of 5 large parts if you take it apart.
     
  3. thepataphysician

    thepataphysician Well-Known Member

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    Reminds me of the time I went to Firing Line in Burbank, and saw two cholos firing a Saturday Night Special in the next row. Gave me a somewhat uncomfortable feeling.

    you know that feeling, when you are walking down the street, that "man, I hope that crazy guy can't get his hands on a gun" feeling. If you go to a shooting range in Philadelphia, look around, you will be surrounded by those guys. It is ok when you are in the range but later in the afternoon, walking down the street, you see one of those guys and realize that he is armed to the teeth. quite unnerving.
     
  4. Arethusa

    Arethusa Well-Known Member

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    Imagine bullet exiting barrel and flying on a brink of it's balance, the moment it comes in contact with anything it starts making summersaults. That is how it works. It was tested by both Soviet and US military but never found wide use as it does not have effective penetration when it comes to thick walls. However it is very bad for human targets. As far as Ar-15 vs. AK-47 . AK-47 is a machine gun! AR-15 is an automatic rifle! AK-47 comes in 7.62 and 5.65 calibers. So let's compare apples to apples. P.S. In terms of maintenance anything can be compared, I guess: so AK-47 consists of 5 large parts if you take it apart.
    You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. All boat tail rifle rounds tumble. An AK-47 is an extremely rare assault rifle that hasn't been made for 60 years. In fact, almost nothing you've said so far has been right.
    you know that feeling, when you are walking down the street, that "man, I hope that crazy guy can't get his hands on a gun" feeling. If you go to a shooting range in Philadelphia, look around, you will be surrounded by those guys. It is ok when you are in the range but later in the afternoon, walking down the street, you see one of those guys and realize that he is armed to the teeth. quite unnerving.
    Man, I know. Can you imagine what would happen if the brown people who don't dress like the white middle class had the same rights as the rest of us?
     
  5. thepataphysician

    thepataphysician Well-Known Member

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    Man, I know. Can you imagine what would happen if the brown people who don't dress like the white middle class had the same rights as the rest of us?


    I was not making a comment based on race at all. I was talking about the CRAZY guys who walk down the street talking to/yelling at themselves.
     
  6. globetrotter

    globetrotter Well-Known Member

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    An AK-47 is an extremely rare assault rifle that hasn't been made for 60 years.


    ??

    both are assult rifles, a maching gun is an entirely different thing.


    the ak-47 comes in 7.62 - there is another member of the kalachnikov family that comes in 5.56, but that is a different weapon.
     
  7. Arethusa

    Arethusa Well-Known Member

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    ??
    The AK-47 was made for about a year after WW2, after which it was quickly replaced by the AKM. Generally, I am not this anal with people about this stuff, but in his case, I make an exception.
     
  8. globetrotter

    globetrotter Well-Known Member

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    The AK-47 was made for about a year after WW2, after which it was quickly replaced by the AKM. Generally, I am not this anal with people about this stuff, but in his case, I make an exception.

    this is the type of thing that I would be willing to pass over - sometimes the common term for something isn't actually correct, and it might have been the case here. I have always understood the 7.62 mm assult rifle made by russia and her allies was the AK-47.

    but, I did a quick web search and havn't found anything that backs up what you are saying.
     
  9. LSeca

    LSeca Well-Known Member

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    this is the type of thing that I would be willing to pass over - sometimes the common term for something isn't actually correct, and it might have been the case here.

    This is actually the case for the term "AR-15" used here as well, but everyone uses the term in this way I guess. This designation refers to a specific manufacturer, Colt Industries, and it's particular model of the rifle. A more correct terminology would be the "M4" or "M-16" and/or the variants made by a very wide variety of brands.
     
  10. Arethusa

    Arethusa Well-Known Member

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    this is the type of thing that I would be willing to pass over - sometimes the common term for something isn't actually correct, and it might have been the case here. I have always understood the 7.62 mm assult rifle made by russia and her allies was the AK-47. but, I did a quick web search and havn't found anything that backs up what you are saying.
    In most cases, I don't care, and it's not a particularly important distinction (though I always use it myself). In his case, considering how thoroughly wrong everything he's said so far has been, exception. Especially because of this off center bullet nonsense. I did, incidentally, mix up the dates. 59 for the AKM (though the AK-47 is quite rare these days). The AK-47 was adopted in 49, and it was the prototypes developed from the Stg44 pattern that were short lived after WW2.
     
  11. thepataphysician

    thepataphysician Well-Known Member

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    The AK-47 was made for about a year after WW2, after which it was quickly replaced by the AKM. Generally, I am not this anal with people about this stuff, but in his case, I make an exception.


    actually, the ak-47 type 1 is rare, but then the russians made ak-47 type 2 and 3 before they switched to the akm. and they made a ton of the type 2 and 3.

    but that doesn't even matter because saying that only the type 1 are ak-47s is stupid in the first place.
     
  12. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Well-Known Member

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    You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. All boat tail rifle rounds tumble. An AK-47 is an extremely rare assault rifle that hasn't been made for 60 years. In fact, almost nothing you've said so far has been right.
    AK-47 had a lot of minor modifications in caliber and length of the barrel over the years. However modern AK is practically unchanged AK-47. It has the same, well , everything as original AK-47. Also it is common knowledge to refer to it as AK or AK-47 in US or other countries. There is an engineering difference between machine gun and automatic rifle. AK is a machine gun NOT a rifle.
     
  13. globetrotter

    globetrotter Well-Known Member

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    There is a engineering difference between machine gun and automatic rifle.
    AK is a machine gun.


    I'd like to see anything that agrees with you on that.

    the M-60 is a machine gun. the AK is an assault riffle, perhaps wven the best example of an assault riffle.
     
  14. LSeca

    LSeca Well-Known Member

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    An M-60 can be referred to as a machine gun as it has a bipod and is belt fed but more importantly requires a crew to operate. However, this is still not the correct term. An AK47 is certainly not a machine gun as it has a rifled barrel.

    A gun is a weapon with a smooth bore barrel, such as a shotgun. In military terms, a gun is usually something much larger, like large caliber Naval guns fired from crews on ships.
     
  15. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see anything that agrees with you on that.

    the M-60 is a machine gun. the AK is an assault riffle, perhaps wven the best example of an assault riffle.


    I am not sure about US nomenclature, but in Russia AK-47 is called AVTOMAT (machine gun) not RIFLE. The difference is the length of the barrel. The effect is: bullet does not complete 360+ movement inside the barrel prior to exit. Thus AVTOMAT (machine gun) has shorter killing distance and lower accuracy than a rifle with longer barrel.
     
  16. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

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    Meh, it's all in your particular choice of terminology, and even choice of vernacular, as the terms are not explicit, and have different meanings in the common, legal, and engineering senses. To be explicit: Machine gun: In common parlance, it means a fully automatic firearm of any type, including submachineguns such as the MAC/Ingram/UZI, light machine guns such as the M16, AK47, FN-FAL, and even heavy belt-fed machine guns such as the Browning M2. The legal definintion is almost the same, and includes light machineguns and heavy machineguns under the simple heading 'machine gun.' That is to say that on the registration paperwork for a fully-automatic Browning belt fed or for an AK-47, the firearm type is called out as, simply, 'Machine Gun.' Technically, the term machine gun is broken into the three classes outline above. Submachinegun: Technically, a submachinegun refers to a pistol caliber machinegun, i.e, the MAC, Uzi, Thompson, etc. The legal definition appears to be the same. In common parlance it almost always refers to the Thompson Submachinegun. Automatic Rifle and Automatic Pistol The two most nebulous of phrases in the firearms world. Strictly, they refer to semi-automatic rifles and pistols, respectively, and not necessarily those capable of fully automatic fire. A better equivalent phrase is 'self-loading' rifle or pistol. The difficulty arose from the fact that automatic-loading firearms were developed prior to fully-automatic firearms, so sem-autos were simply called 'automatics' back in the day. In common parlance, the phrases mean pretty much anything and are thus worthless, technical people will avoid their use outside of the community. Assault Rifle Strictly, an Assault Rifle is a fairly light, very durable, reliable and manuverable infantry rifle that is capable of select-fire (choice of semi- or fully-automatic fire modes). Common examples are the AK-47, the M16, and the Sturmgewehr. Commonly, an Assault Rifle is anything that looks marshal and can fire semi-automatically. In other words, calling an AK a 'machine gun' is not strictly wrong, and in fact legally correct, but is still a poor choice of words. As is 'Automatic Rifle.' I'd choose 'select-fire assault rifle' if I had to pick. As for the 'engineering difference' between a self-loading rifle and a fully-automatic rifle, I feel confident in saying, as an engineer, that in many cases it's not much. Regards, Huntsman
     
  17. LSeca

    LSeca Well-Known Member

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  18. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

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    An M-60 can be referred to as a machine gun as it has a bipod and is belt fed but more importantly requires a crew to operate. However, this is still not the correct term.
    Bipods have nothing to do with it. Being crew-served only indicates that it is a heavy machine gun. Machine gun is a correct, if not very specific, term. I have in front of me and original training manual published by GM's Frigidaire Division for the .50 cal Browning. I quote from the cover "Caliber .50, M2, Browning Machine Gun." And US Army Technical Manual TM 9-1005-213-10 "Operator's Manual, Machine Gun, Caliber 50, Browning, M2 [...]". The Browning .30 cal, and the M-60 are called out in the same manner.
    An AK47 is certainly not a machine gun as it has a rifled barrel.
    Simply not true. Rifling does not affect the definition of a machine gun. If that were the case there would be no machineguns.
    A gun is a weapon with a smooth bore barrel, such as a shotgun. In military terms, a gun is usually something much larger, like large caliber Naval guns fired from crews on ships.
    Navy types do use 'gun' to refer to large caliber rifled or smoothbore projectile-firing weapons, but 'gun' does not only refer to a smoothbore. 'Musket' or 'shotgun' is the appropriate terms where applicable for smoothbores, as 'rifle' is for a rifled, long barreled, small caliber, shoulder-fired small arm. 'Gun' is really the blanket, most general and generic term, excepting only that military caveat.
    I am not sure about US nomenclature, but in Russia AK-47 is called AVTOMAT (machine gun) not RIFLE. The difference is the length of the barrel. The effect is: bullet does not complete 360+ movement inside the barrel prior to exit. Thus AVTOMAT (machine gun) has shorter killing distance and lower accuracy than a rifle with longer barrel.
    Firstly, Avtomat is simply 'automatic' or 'automatic gun' -- to claim it denotatively translates to 'machine gun' is stretching it. By connotation it probably now does, but that means nothing really. I will check with a Russian friend of mine. Length of barrel does not determine the qualification of 'machine gun' -- that's freaking ridiculous! ~ Huntsman
     
  19. LSeca

    LSeca Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected Huntsman. I was always under the impression machine gun meant a crew operated weapon, and gun was used for large heavy artillery type weapons. I also thought anything smaller and rifled was not to be called anything but a rifle.

    I learned something today.
     
  20. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

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    Well, a lot of the terms are really quite nebulous, and definitions have changed over the years, so a great deal of confusion, even amongst the cognoscenti, typically ensues. I recall learning from you about rims...
     

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