1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Got a ticket, need help

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by nerazzurrri, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. JohnGalt

    JohnGalt Senior member

    Messages:
    4,880
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Location:
    Ouray, CO
    would you expect someone else to pay for your follies?

    This is 2010 America.
     
  2. coopster

    coopster Senior member

    Messages:
    193
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    I have a question about the legality of a ticket cited by a camera and served via mail.

    I was under the impression that you had to actually be served a ticket, i.e. have it handed to you by a law enforcement officer (Thats why the cop always ask you to sign the ticket even though you are not admitting to guilt, because you are saying that you were served the ticket)

    What am I missing?
     
  3. teddieriley

    teddieriley Senior member

    Messages:
    8,494
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Location:
    Wait, you smell that?
    The fact that you wrote so much before makes the Edit: that much more awesome.

    Well done.


    Thanks, consider it a PSA for everyone else. I know all this because it happened to me while driving a car registered to my father. He was annoyed having to drive 45 minutes to Santa Monica and waste his morning fighting the ticket that I got, and he was concerned the judge would ask the identity of the driver. Judge couldn't care less. He compared the photo of a younger, and dashingly good looking gentleman (as grainy as the photo was), then looked at my dad and immediately dismissed the ticket.
     
  4. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    OP, not sure what jurisdiction you are in, but if you're in California, if you're ever in the squared area formed by the inner lines of a pedestrian crosswalk when you don't have the right of way (i.e., on a red without proper stops), it is a ticketable violation.

    Only the registered owner of the vehicle will receive the ticket. The ticket purportedly requires you to SNITCH on the person driving the car if you claim it is not you. So your stepfather can contest the ticket and NOT fill out who was driving the car at the time. He is not obligated to do the city/cop's job by identifying the violator, despite what the form says. He will, however, be required to waste his time going to court. The judge will compare the photo to him and likely conclude he didn't commit the violation and dismiss the ticket. It would be rare for him to ask, "then who was driving?" If I were stepdad, I'd just say, I don't have that information if the question comes up. The law is not, I won't ticket you if you tell me who committed the violation.

    I don't know what the protocol is if your dad decides to snitch on you to get out of paying the ticket. If he has to go to court regardless, he should not identify you. If, however, the form expressly states he will not receive a ticket and will not have to go to court if he turns you in, he may be inclined to do so.

    Edit: Decided to read more posts after posting - looks like your stepdad can and may help to screw you.


    well technically he doesnt have to go to court if he just fills out the form and snitches on me, as i stated earlier i got one of those tickets because my brother ran a red but i filled the form and i never had to show up to court so im thinking he might do the same, if i would have known that i would have just went to court and saved my brother $400 bucks, and yes I am in Los Angeles.
     
  5. Harold falcon

    Harold falcon Senior member

    Messages:
    27,420
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Location:
    NE PA
    Well, my mom and stepfather are getting divorced and he does not like me so he probably will[​IMG]

    So then tell him to pound sand. Even if he rats you out there is no police officer to come track you down. The Court isn't going to issue YOU a ticket separately. The only thing that will occur at your Step-father's hearing is he will either be found guilty or not guilty. You have nothing to do with it. You could voluntarily go in to accept responsibility, but there's no summons out for you, so you don't have to show.

    I have a question about the legality of a ticket cited by a camera and served via mail.

    I was under the impression that you had to actually be served a ticket, i.e. have it handed to you by a law enforcement officer (Thats why the cop always ask you to sign the ticket even though you are not admitting to guilt, because you are saying that you were served the ticket)

    What am I missing?


    You are under a mistaken impression. Service via mail is almost universally recognized as sufficient.

    So what you are saying is that everyone should trade cars?

    If I register my roommate's car and he registers mine, then we can contest all of our tickets?


    Not quite. This would only work in those red-light stop light cases where the photo clearly shows the driver, and the driver is not the registered owner. It would never work with an actual police officer because he or she would have your license at the time of the offense.

    While your ploy might work once or twice, should you show up to the same local judge pleading the same case multiple times he might get very tired of seeing your face and find you guilty just to spite you.
     
  6. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    So then tell him to pound sand. Even if he rats you out there is no police officer to come track you down. The Court isn't going to issue YOU a ticket separately. The only thing that will occur at your Step-father's hearing is he will either be found guilty or not guilty. You have nothing to do with it. You could voluntarily go in to accept responsibility, but there's no summons out for you, so you don't have to show.



    You are under a mistaken impression. Service via mail is almost universally recognized as sufficient.



    Not quite. This would only work in those red-light stop light cases where the photo clearly shows the driver, and the driver is not the registered owner. It would never work with an actual police officer because he or she would have your license at the time of the offense.

    While your ploy might work once or twice, should you show up to the same local judge pleading the same case multiple times he might get very tired of seeing your face and find you guilty just to spite you.


    The only problem with me telling him to pound sand is that he doesnt have to pound sand because he can fill out the form that comes with the mail to say who was the culprit and that would be me.[​IMG]
     
  7. teddieriley

    teddieriley Senior member

    Messages:
    8,494
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Location:
    Wait, you smell that?


    The only problem with me telling him to pound sand is that he doesnt have to pound sand because he can fill out the form that comes with the mail to say who was the culprit and that would be me.[​IMG]


    What I think he is suggesting is that while your step dad could rat you out, whether you will have to pay the fine depends on whether the city follows up and issues you a separate citation. On the one hand, you can hope that the incompetence or laziness of local government may save you, but on the other, with a cash-strapped state/county, the government may be focusing efforts on revenue generating taks. But in any event, assuming you are issued a separate citation, you might have some basis for contesting the ticket. Not sure what that is, but you can figure something out...
     
  8. Harold falcon

    Harold falcon Senior member

    Messages:
    27,420
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Location:
    NE PA
    What I think he is suggesting is that while your step dad could rat you out, whether you will have to pay the fine depends on whether the city follows up and issues you a separate citation. On the one hand, you can hope that the incompetence or laziness of local government may save you, but on the other, with a cash-strapped state/county, the government may be focusing efforts on revenue generating taks. But in any event, assuming you are issued a separate citation, you might have some basis for contesting the ticket. Not sure what that is, but you can figure something out...

    ^ This.
     
  9. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    What I think he is suggesting is that while your step dad could rat you out, whether you will have to pay the fine depends on whether the city follows up and issues you a separate citation. On the one hand, you can hope that the incompetence or laziness of local government may save you, but on the other, with a cash-strapped state/county, the government may be focusing efforts on revenue generating taks. But in any event, assuming you are issued a separate citation, you might have some basis for contesting the ticket. Not sure what that is, but you can figure something out...

    they do follow up because my brother got his about a week after i sent mine in [​IMG]
     
  10. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,825
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
  11. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    [​IMG]

    do you have any advice instead of sitting back and eating popcorn? [​IMG]
     
  12. retronotmetro

    retronotmetro Senior member

    Messages:
    1,645
    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    The judge will compare the photo to him and likely conclude he didn't commit the violation and dismiss the ticket. It would be rare for him to ask, "then who was driving?" If I were stepdad, I'd just say, I don't have that information if the question comes up.

    Not that I am offering anyone legal advice, but that response, under these facts, would be a very bad idea.
     
  13. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Not that I am offering anyone legal advice, but that response, under these facts, would be a very bad idea.

    He legally doesn't have to rat me out, so even if its morally a bad idea (not even morally because all they want is the money) it is not illegal.
     
  14. retronotmetro

    retronotmetro Senior member

    Messages:
    1,645
    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    He legally doesn't have to rat me out, so even if its morally a bad idea (not even morally because all they want is the money) it is not illegal.

    Perhaps I am being too subtle. Telling a judge under oath that you don't have certain information, when you in fact have that information, is a very bad idea. It can have consequences that are exponentially worse than a traffic fine.
     
  15. teddieriley

    teddieriley Senior member

    Messages:
    8,494
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Location:
    Wait, you smell that?
    Not that I am offering anyone legal advice, but that response, under these facts, would be a very bad idea.

    I'm suggesting there is a way to get around the question if you really wanted to. Whether ultimately the judge thinks you are playing games and decides to slap you with the citation for doing so is another matter, but I don't think he should or would. If I were truly pressed by the judge I would say something along the lines of, "What I can tell you your honor was that the camera did not take a photo of me driving the car during the purported violation, as you can tell. I can't tell you from that grainy picture who was driving the car, all I know is that person is clearly not as handsome as I am. Is my understanding correct that it is law enforcment's job to identify a violator? I mean, if I didn't like my father-in-law, and I told you it looks like him (i.e., my wife may have let him borrow the car that day) would you automatically slap him with the ticket without any further process?"

    What is the judge going to do - hold you in contempt if you don't want to make any solid conclusions in identifying a violator?
     
  16. dragon8

    dragon8 Senior member

    Messages:
    4,613
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I'm suggesting there is a way to get around the question if you really wanted to. Whether ultimately the judge thinks you are playing games and decides to slap you with the citation for doing so is another matter, but I don't think he should or would. If I were truly pressed by the judge I would say something along the lines of, "What I can tell you your honor was that the camera did not take a photo of me driving the car during the purported violation, as you can tell. I can't tell you from that grainy picture who was driving the car, all I know is that person is clearly not as handsome as I am. Is my understanding correct that it is law enforcment's job to identify a violator? I mean, if I didn't like my father-in-law, and I told you it looks like him (i.e., my wife may have let him borrow the car that day) would you automatically slap him with the ticket without any further process?"

    What is the judge going to do - hold you in contempt if you don't want to make any solid conclusions in identifying a violator?


    I think you have to be careful and I wouldn't say that the above. Judges don't like to be shown up in front of their courts especially when the gallery is filled with law enforcement personnel and other spectators. You may get away with it if you are the last case
     
  17. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,825
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    do you have any advice instead of sitting back and eating popcorn? [​IMG]

    Yes. The advice I already provided: chill.
     
  18. nerazzurrri

    nerazzurrri Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Yes. The advice I already provided: chill.

    I guess the laugh icon didn't throw you off, i was joking brotato.[​IMG]
     
  19. retronotmetro

    retronotmetro Senior member

    Messages:
    1,645
    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    I'm suggesting there is a way to get around the question if you really wanted to.

    Of course there is. I'm just saying that telling an outright lie to the judge, on a material issue that could be proved false by minor investigation, is a bad idea. You'd really be better off telling the judge "that's irrelevant to my case" than going down the road of giving evasive partial answers that will probably piss off the judge and lead to a cross-examination intended to embarass you at best and elicit perjury at worst.

    This issue is the most painful part of photoenforcement tickets--that you can't show up and take the 5th if you want to contend that it isn't you, but there is no privilege you can invoke to avoid being questioned about who it really is.

    Personally, if I got a ticket with someone else's photo, I'd opt for trial by written declaration (which we can do in CA) and send in a bunch of recent photos of myself with a declaration stating "This is me. I am not the person shown in the citation, and therefore am not guilty." No cross-examination, so no squirming around hoping not to be asked "then who is it?"

    What is the judge going to do - hold you in contempt if you don't want to make any solid conclusions in identifying a violator?

    Maybe judges are a lot nicer where you live, but I can tell you that in LA, we have plenty of judges who would unhesitatingly do that to a person who tries to get cute.

    One of the early lessons you get as a litigator is that judges exercise absolute power in their courtrooms, and the ill-tempered ones often have an uncanny ability to make sure that the record shows that what looked like petty vindictiveness to you, is actually a sound and reasonable exercise of their discretion that cannot be disturbed on appeal.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by