Charvet, Hermes, and Arnys all make great ties, and all three have the acetate logo keepers rather than a self-loop. I've never been able to understand it. It's a bit like it would be if the Waldorf Astoria had plastic cups in the bathrooms. Yup. As I'm sure you know, a lot of people out there think that the thicker the tie, the better the quality, not realizing that in many or most cases, the tie's thickness is a function of the lining. I'm sure that a lot of tie manufacturers have learned that you can charge $10 more for a tie if you just throw in a thick lining.