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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Senior member

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    how is Douglas McArthur not allowing Japan to apologize Japan's fault? (I think I'm missing something)
     
  2. The Noodles

    The Noodles Senior member

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    If you don't know the history and if you are going to just reference links, please stop.

    Let me put it very simply using an example. Would Jewish people take Germany's apologies seriously if the highest ranking German politicians annually visited a memorial cemetery that has war criminals?! That's what Japan is doing. Google Yasukuni Shrine.

    This is just one simple example.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  3. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Senior member

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    Because the politics extend past WWII. For example, bad Korean-Japanese relations started in the 19th century.
     
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  4. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    My wife used to be involved with a volunteer organization that helped women who had been forced into prostitution by the Japanese.

    I lived in Korean for almost six years, am married to a Korean, and took three classes on the Holocaust as an undergraduate (why I did this is beyond me). Plus you guys know me. I'm a pretty nuanced guy.

    So, what Japan did to Asia--and particularly Manchuria and Korea--was awful. The actions of Unit 731 were evil, inasmuch as we can use to word. But the atrocities, and the motivation behind them, cannot be compared to those of Nazi Germany.

    Koreans don't learn much about Nazi or the Holocaust in their history class (to be fair, we learn very little about Japans actions outside of Pearl Harbor in US history classes). My wife, well educated, was under the impression that maybe 100,000 Jews were killed. Most Koreans are under this impression. When we first started dating, we discussed this several times. That the Holocaust is comparable to Japans actions against the Koreans is deeply ingrained in the Korean consciousness. Eventually, after reading a few articles and watching a documentary or two, she ceded that yeah, what Germany did was way worse.

    But she also brings up a key point. Over the last 50 years, Japan has been very inconsistent in taking responsibility for their actions. The current prime minister, Shinzo Abe, who is awesome in many respects, is a great example of this. That's the big difference, I think. Germany has consistently taken full responsibility. Japan hasn't and doesn't.

    -----

    You guys have no idea how much in pained me to ignore the toilet picture. It really, really pained me. Thank you, Ac2, for trying to use it for its intended purpose. One day, I hope Fok (@LA Guy ) will make an emoticon out of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  5. The Noodles

    The Noodles Senior member

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    No, way before that in the 16th century when they invaded Korea.

    Another example, Germany outlawed the Nazi flag. Japan still parades around their rising sun flag that they used during the invasions.

    I just wish that the past history is not forgotten and that the people in the West get educated on the level of Japanese war crime crualty.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  6. Monkeyface

    Monkeyface Senior member

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    And that justifies racism how?
     
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  7. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Senior member

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    Also, I'm not Chinese, but from my experience the pro-Japanese/anti-Chinese sentiment is quite strong in the West, especially in media.
     
  8. yanagi

    yanagi Senior member

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    It's not all Japan's fault. Of course forgiveness is a two-way street. But this is a red herring. If I wasn't clear in my post, I was blaming MacArthur for not allowing the Showa Emperor to apologize.

    I also strongly, strongly disagree that the Koreans and the Chinese bear a large share of the blame. As the Wiki entry you linked to states, "Criticisms regarding the degree and formality of apology, issued as a statement or delivered person-to-person to the country addressed, and the perception by some that some apologies are later retracted or contradicted by statements or actions of Japan, among others." As I see it, the perception is not without basis. Abe Shinzo has at times stated that he wants to contradict the Murayama Statement. Sure, you can say that he didn't go through with it ultimately. You can even say that he does it because Korea and China aren't cooperative. But at the end of the day, he's still refusing to be the bigger man with his taunts, and he bears responsibility for that.

    And then there's the Yasukuni Shrine. To say that it is just a "domestic affair" when the Shrine commemorates Class A war criminals who caused untold suffering across Asia is ridiculous. Their enshrinement led the Showa Emperor to boycott the Shrine for the rest of his life. It's certainly not China or Korea's fault that the Head Priest in the 1970s (the decade when the PRC re-normalized relations with Japan and waived reparations) decided to enshrine the Class A war criminals.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  9. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This guy had something to say about that.

    [​IMG]

    -----

    Nothing justifies racism. On a related note (man I'm getting a lot of mileage out of this), I'm doing some research on collectivism and discrimination in the United States. In general, collectivism (in the United States) correlates rather strongly with discrimination. Here's a nifty cuff-link graph. There is no reason to expect this correlation not to hold at the country level (and theory strongly suggests it does)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  10. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Senior member

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    Correct. I was in retrospect thinking about the time they were actually successful.
     
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  11. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Senior member

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    Nobody hates the Japanese as a class. I'm not a fan of the far-nationalists which Shinzo Abe panders to.
     
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  12. sebastian mcfox

    sebastian mcfox Senior member

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    This thread lives and breathes on off-topic discussions, but this is a poor one.

    Back to colourful bits of cloth?
     
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  13. Monkeyface

    Monkeyface Senior member

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    Not just Jews were killed. A lot of people who were judged to be inferior because of heritage, skin colour, disabilities, political views, or simply being part of the resistance were killed as well. The Germans committed unspeakable acts, and yet you'll be hard pressed to find a European that actually hates Germans. My grandparents lived through the war, but they didn't hate Germans. You don't need an apology to be able to forgive.

    Besides, most people that actually committed those acts are dead or on their way out anyways. You shouldn't keep the son responsible for the actions of his father, or in this case, the actions of his great-grandfather.
     
  14. The Noodles

    The Noodles Senior member

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    Racism? Koreans and Japanese are the same race. The word Japs may have been used by the Americans as a racial slur.
     
  15. Monkeyface

    Monkeyface Senior member

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    Xenophobia then?
     
  16. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    a) I'm more than well aware that Jews were not the only people persecuted by the Nazis. But they were the primary focus of Nazi ideology and suffered more than any other group (full disclosure: a great-grandmother was killed by Nazis for being Jewish, though I don't know if it was in a concentration camp, and I'm named after a Holocaust survivor. So I could be more oriented towards their plight. But yeah, I'm very familiar with what they did to homosexuals, gypsies, communists, etc etc etc)

    b) I disagree. It is unreasonable to forgive someone who doesn't acknowledge wrong doing. It's nice if you do, but it certainly isn't something which should be expected.

    c) you and I are from very individualistic cultures. The idea of collective or shared guilt makes little sense to us. But it is natural in collective cultures. For example, when the Sewol ferry sank in South Korea a couple years ago, the entire nation felt a sense of guilt and shame, and people from all over the country came to the site of the accident to apologize to the families of those lost. And it wasn't out of any sense of duty or obligation. You watch the interviews and you can see true, heartfelt sorrow in those apologizing. So "everyone is already dead" doesn't make a difference to them. And it may even be beside the point when you have living politicians ducking Japan's actions in East Asia (and SE Asia)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  17. yanagi

    yanagi Senior member

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    Former West German Chancellor Willy Brandt knelt in front of a memorial at Warsaw while he was in office. Sure, it was just a symbolic gesture that may have not amounted to much practically. But it was done nevertheless. No Japanese PM has ever done that in China or Korea.
     
  18. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well, Abe kneels at the shrine where members of Unit 731 are buried, which is sort of the sa...oh. No. Total opposite.

    ----

    But hey, we can all agree that Admiral Yi Sun-sin was a total badass, right?

    ----

    Also, from my experience, Koreans are very racist. Particularly towards Africans, African-Americans, and SE Asians or those from the Indian subcontinent. Towards the Japanese, they aren't racist, just angry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  19. Monkeyface

    Monkeyface Senior member

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    Let's just say I've witnessed the racism or whatever you might call it against the Japanese. Even little kids, like 5 or 6 years old, will say truly bad stuff when they find out someone is Japanese. It's horrible.
     
  20. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Senior member

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    Not sure why you're still comparing Germany to Japan.

    Hmm....If we're still doing the 'Murica thing, we should also post a picture of the Japanese internment camps they had in the U.S. Interesting no one brought that up yet, considering it was America and U.S. In the first pic.
     
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