Go EAST, Young Man!

[LA Guy]

America is sh*t deep in trouble. China owns a lot of dollars, has essentially no debt, and has a huge, generally productive, cheap workforce with a work ethic unparalleled in the States and in Europe. The educational level in the Chinese population is rising dramatically too. I will eat the pair of Puma Miharas I am wearing right now (they would not be tasty - made in Vietnam, btw) if China doesn't present itself a a global rather than primarily regional power within the next couple of decades, despite it's insular propensities.

 

[StagRaven]

Not surprising that people are finally taking notice of the great deal of outsourcing America is, and has been, doing increasingly over the last few decades. We just had a tremendous speaker come to campus last week to talk about this very subject. Thomas Friedman writes almost exclusively on this subject, and just released his latest, The World is Flat. Very interesting read, with good points, I think.

 

[quill]

WOW. Thank you, montecristo#4 (btw: what did you do with montecristos #1, 2, and 3?) and StagRaven; both your reference are very interesting. So...now that we've established that China is hot on our heels (most likely in shoes that were made by them in the first place) ... and ... trying to keep things on topic here... Have any of you actually bought any suits/sportcoats/shirts/shoes/belts/accessories/etc. from designers/sources you knew to be Chinese? (and I'm not including here the obviously long-standing reputation of Hong Kong tailoring; I'm speaking specifically of mainland China) If so, has the quality held up?

 

[newyorker]

Thomas Friedman writes almost exclusively on this subject, and just released his latest,

I am so sorry, but I don't think any scholar should take anything that Thomas Friedman writes seriously. He is superficially writing on subjects neither commesurate with his intelligence nor educational qualification.

His book, "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" was a joke. I read it in college, most of my friends agreed that we were disgusted with how he was trying to pass himself as an expert on globalization, only later to find out that the book was assigned for reading as an example of a poorly written book. If you want to understand globalization, there are far better books written by far more intelligent people.

 

[quill]

Quote:

(StagRaven @ April 12 2005,20:10) Thomas Friedman writes almost exclusively on this subject, and just released his latest,
I am so sorry, but I don't think any scholar should take anything that Thomas Friedman writes seriously. He is superficially writing on subjects neither commesurate with his intelligence nor educational qualification. His book, "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" was a joke. I read it in college, most of my friends agreed that we were disgusted with how he was trying to pass himself as an expert on globalization, only later to find out that the book was assigned for reading as an example of a poorly written book. Â If you want to understand globalization, there are far better books written by far more intelligent people.
Good to hear another opinion. Thanks, newyorker. I'm not familiar with Friedman, but doesn't winning three Pulitzers speak to some semblance of acumen? Not trying to start a debate here, nor go off topic, I'm just trying to determine if Friedman is worth pursuing. Reviews of his work, and his accomplishments, would seem to indicate he's at least worth listening to. Am I wrong?

 

[oscarthewild]

Quote:

(newyorker @ April 13 2005,08:39) I am so sorry, but I don't think any scholar should take anything that Thomas Friedman writes seriously. He is superficially writing on subjects neither commesurate with his intelligence nor educational qualification. His book, "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" was a joke. I read it in college, most of my friends agreed that we were disgusted with how he was trying to pass himself as an expert on globalization, only later to find out that the book was assigned for reading as an example of a poorly written book. Â If you want to understand globalization, there are far better books written by far more intelligent people.
Good to hear another opinion. Thanks, newyorker. I'm not familiar with Friedman, but doesn't winning three Pulitzers speak to some semblance of acumen? Not trying to start a debate here, nor go off topic, I'm just trying to determine if Friedman is worth pursuing. Reviews of his work, and his accomplishments, would seem to indicate he's at least worth listening to. Am I wrong?
I have been reading Friedman for years. He is good at times, very good sometimes and off the mark sometimes. He is at his weakest when he is "overreaching". He is what fox news may call part of the liberal elite media. I find him centerist with slight liberal/left leanings. He is better at writing than when he is on TV doing interviews. The conversation does not get as fluid as say with Charlie Rose. After seeing him on TV on one of the post 9/11 mideast focus shows, I wondered if he is able to relax his interviewee more without the camera present. After all, that is a critical skill in conducting interviews. -

 

[newyorker]

He is a globe-trotting journalist, and has access to many important people globally. He is good at getting maximum publicity. He is not an expert in globalization, he does not do enough research, and he is not scholarly. If one wants to understand globalization for serious purposes (business, education), I would avoid this book. But it is "ok" for a casual read. He writes pompously. He exaggerates his arguments. He cons silly terms like "DOScapital 6.0", "Globalution", "The Golden Straightjacket" for concepts that already exist and have proper names for God knows what reason (trying to be original? to impress?). He namedrops the famous people he has met, the famous hotels he has stayed in, and the way he travels (he travels first/business class). This is more than I can bear. The first chapter of Lexus and the Olive Tree talks about his experience trying to get oranges delivered to his room at Okura Hotel, Tokyo. My honest opinion is that I can't imagine someone reasonably intelligent who wouldn't be deeply disgusted after reading The Lexus and The Olive Tree. You can just read this article that he wrote and ask yourself if you really want to read the writing of what appears to be a 12 year old rather than a Pulitzer prize winner: http://www.google-watch.org/friedman.html You can read an excerpt of The Lexus and The Olive Tree at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/gp....er-page I respect others who feel otherwise about his writing.

 

[newyorker]

 He is at his weakest when he is "overreaching".  He is what fox news may call part of the liberal elite media.  I find him centerist with slight liberal/left leanings.

He overreaches all the time, trying -- but failing -- to simplify complex issues and trying to sound smart at the same time. It doesn't matter whether he is right or left, because I don't mind reading books with different perspectives as long as the arguments put forth are intelligent.

 

[quill]

Thanks for your perspective, newyorker. I appreciate it. But alas, I've betrayed my own thread. So, to get back on topic: Have any of you actually bought any suits/sportcoats/shirts/shoes/belts/accessories/etc. from designers/sources you knew to be Chinese? (and I'm not including here the obviously long-standing reputation of Hong Kong tailoring; I'm speaking specifically of mainland China) If so, has the quality held up?

 

[esquire.]

I don't know if its really much of an issue that China owns that many dollars.

Friedman specialzes in the MiddleEast, so I have no idea why he's talking about globolization. I haven't read any of his books, but I don't find anything wrong with his columns for NY Times stylistically. It's not particulairly elegant, but he has to deal with the constraints of a newspaper column.

As for China's quality, I think it all depends on the company itself and if they've placed the proper quality controls in place. Let's say you're making shirts. There's going to be an obvious quality difference between paying workers 5 cents for each shirt as long as its finished and paying 7 cents for each shirt that passes a quality control inspection.

Honestly, even if Chinese quality improves, I think there will still be a stigma there for another generation- only when you have consumers who don't remember the poor quality of Chinese goods.

 

[LA Guy]

Honestly, even if Chinese quality improves, I think there will still be a stigma there for another generation- only when you have consumers who don't remember the poor quality of Chinese goods.

I'd argue against this. I think that a good PR campaign could change things around *very* quickly. One place (in apparel) where the Chinese are making headway is in the "streetwear" category. A "Made in China" label may attach stigma to a brand that is already assumed to be mass produced - DKNY and Calvin Klein, for example. However, this stigma does not attach itself to lines that are perceived to be made in small quanitities are exclusive primarily for that reason. For example, a good amount of the goods from the Wrangler 47 line and from Unis are "Made in China" and are nevertheless seen as desirable by a certain demographic because the good are difficult to find.

 

[gorgekko]

Are we outsourcing ourselves to death? Seems like nobody in America actually makes anything anymore.

In reality, more jobs flowed into the U.S. over the past five years then flowed out thanks to globalization. I know it's hard to believe, but the U.S. has actually imported more jobs then it has exported.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Yes, but what kind of jobs? That's the important part.

 

[Demeter]

Quote:

(quill @ April 12 2005,09:13) Are we outsourcing ourselves to death? Seems like nobody in America actually makes anything anymore.
In reality, more jobs flowed into the U.S. over the past five years then flowed out thanks to globalization. I know it's hard to believe, but the U.S. has actually imported more jobs then it has exported.
That may be, but it won't last very long. The new trend is the outsourcing of white-collar jobs. We're not talking about seamstresses, tech support anymore, we're talking about accountants. This is what's scary.

 

[countdemoney]

"Have any of you actually bought any suits/sportcoats/shirts/shoes/belts/accessories/etc. from designers/sources you knew to be Chinese? (and I'm not including here the obviously long-standing reputation of Hong Kong tailoring; I'm speaking specifically of mainland China)"


Yes, we've sourced, and I've been to, factories in the mainland, primarily in accessories. Quality depends on the material you help pick. Most of the factories we use are QS-9000 certified and work on a variety of other name brands (legitimately). Most of the work that you really want done in China from a cost perspective is the sewing.

Anyone going to be in HK at the end of April/early May?