Giving money to homeless beggars

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by haganah

Here is what I believe when it comes to the homeless and giving (in no uncertain order):

1) It is good to give what you can. Nobody forces you to give or even expects it. Don't defend how much or how little you give.

2) I don't think people choose to be homeless or to beg. In fact, I don't know if i would be capable of it. Perhaps I'm too proud or haven't had my spirit crushed to that extent.

3) Most homeless people have mental disorders. I believe over 75% actually.

4) It has to be even harder getting yourself out of that "hole" once you're in it.

5) Believe in the good of people.

6) Giving money to someone that might spend it on alcohol doesn't encourage them to drink. If they're going to abuse a substance, I'm sure they'll do it anyway. Plus I'm not so sure I fault anyone for wanting to forget about life if they're in that situation.

But that's just what I believe.

I agree with all of this, although I have no idea about (3)

Also, and probably a selfish point, it simply makes me feel good to give. And I like to feel good about myself.

 

[haganah]

Originally Posted by gdl203

I agree with all of this, although I have no idea about (3) Also, and probably a selfish point, it simply makes me feel good to give. And I like to feel good about myself.
I looked it up. I know the 75% number had to be from somewhere but i can't find it. 20-25% have severe mental illness resulting in the homelessness. Either way, I don't think someone chooses this "lifestyle". Also it's very sad that a lot of veterans are coming back with disorders and are now also homeless. I hate to bring religion into it but in Judaism, there are all sorts of levels of giving. If you give to people close to you...If you give to people before they lose everything vs. helping people once they've lost everything...if you give anonymously so you don't get any recognition. I think it's all incredibly interesting.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by haganah

Either way, I don't think someone chooses this "lifestyle".
+1. I give rarely, for all the usual rationales plus some other more neurotic ones, but if I'm honest with myself, I know that I should do it more.

 

[Mark from Plano]

Two points that have very little to do with each other.

First, I have seen several references in this thread to "why haven't I seen abuses reported in the media?" A few years ago, the Dallas Morning News did a large piece on the homeless that focused specifically on the "Disabled Veteran" claim that many were making on their signs. They interviewed several got names from them and then researched and found that none were veterans. In one case the guy admitted that he simply couldn't abide going to a job every day and that this was easier. The article also reported that they had seen pickup trucks that would come by at a designated time and gather up these folks from their designated corners and take them away (indicating a coordination of efforts).

To Lawyerdad's point, this isn't a proxy for all homeless, but it is out there and it does make some people hesitant. I tend to give money if someone is clearly disabled (missing a limb, etc.) or whatever. Otherwise my contributions go to the United Way and other organizations or, as I said before, sometimes buying them a sandwich.


Second:
I was in the Pacific Northwest recently (Portland) and saw something up there that I don't see in Dallas. Around 5pm or so and for the next couple of hours thereafter, a bevy of young people decended on the downtown streets begging for money. Generally, this was (it appeared) "lifestyle homelessness". Most were younger people (say late teens or 20's) with piercings, dreadlocks, "grunge look" clothing, obviously mentally and physically able. They would try to outdo each other in making clever signs ("Bet you $1 you won't read this" was the most popular). I can imagine that these kids were there to escape bad home lives or whatever, but it still struck me as something of a different order than the homeless that I'd encountered on the streets here or in other cities I'd been to. Anyone else seen this?

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

I was in the Pacific Northwest recently (Portland) and saw something up there that I don't see in Dallas. Around 5pm or so and for the next couple of hours thereafter, a bevy of young people decended on the downtown streets begging for money. Generally, this was (it appeared) "lifestyle homelessness". Most were younger people (say late teens or 20's) with piercings, dreadlocks, "grunge look" clothing, obviously mentally and physically able. They would try to outdo each other in making clever signs ("Bet you $1 you won't read this" was the most popular). I can imagine that these kids were there to escape bad home lives or whatever, but it still struck me as something of a different order than the homeless that I'd encountered on the streets here or in other cities I'd been to. Anyone else seen this?

Yes - they're Travellers. New Age nomads, if you'd like. There are dozens of thousands of them in Europe (especially the UK). Sort of a cross between gypsies and the historical Irish travellers.

 

[Dedalus]

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

Second:
I was in the Pacific Northwest recently (Portland) and saw something up there that I don't see in Dallas. Around 5pm or so and for the next couple of hours thereafter, a bevy of young people decended on the downtown streets begging for money. Generally, this was (it appeared) "lifestyle homelessness". Most were younger people (say late teens or 20's) with piercings, dreadlocks, "grunge look" clothing, obviously mentally and physically able. They would try to outdo each other in making clever signs ("Bet you $1 you won't read this" was the most popular). I can imagine that these kids were there to escape bad home lives or whatever, but it still struck me as something of a different order than the homeless that I'd encountered on the streets here or in other cities I'd been to. Anyone else seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_punk

 

[haganah]

I didn't say someone was being completely honest. I am sure you told at least one fib this week as well just like the guy who said he was a veteran and wasn't. We all do. I am saying i never once encountered a homeless man that was making 6 figures from recycling coke cans, never ran into a homeless person that got up at the end of the day and walked into his nice apartment, etc. But a lot of people keep saying they see this in person or on the news (without providing any proof), when i have never seen it, and never read about it in the news. Heck I might just have never run into it or have read about it...but then again, I'll stick with my judgement that it's mostly bunk.

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

Two points that have very little to do with each other. First, I have seen several references in this thread to "why haven't I seen abuses reported in the media?" A few years ago, the Dallas Morning News did a large piece on the homeless that focused specifically on the "Disabled Veteran" claim that many were making on their signs. They interviewed several got names from them and then researched and found that none were veterans. In one case the guy admitted that he simply couldn't abide going to a job every day and that this was easier. The article also reported that they had seen pickup trucks that would come by at a designated time and gather up these folks from their designated corners and take them away (indicating a coordination of efforts). To Lawyerdad's point, this isn't a proxy for all homeless, but it is out there and it does make some people hesitant. I tend to give money if someone is clearly disabled (missing a limb, etc.) or whatever. Otherwise my contributions go to the United Way and other organizations or, as I said before, sometimes buying them a sandwich. Second: I was in the Pacific Northwest recently (Portland) and saw something up there that I don't see in Dallas. Around 5pm or so and for the next couple of hours thereafter, a bevy of young people decended on the downtown streets begging for money. Generally, this was (it appeared) "lifestyle homelessness". Most were younger people (say late teens or 20's) with piercings, dreadlocks, "grunge look" clothing, obviously mentally and physically able. They would try to outdo each other in making clever signs ("Bet you $1 you won't read this" was the most popular). I can imagine that these kids were there to escape bad home lives or whatever, but it still struck me as something of a different order than the homeless that I'd encountered on the streets here or in other cities I'd been to. Anyone else seen this?

 

[teddieriley]

I was in Barcelona years ago and near Las Ramblas a homeless person basically set up a small camp near the main street with all his/her (can't remember which) junk and a had a few kittens. This person was sitting in a lawn chair watching passerbys and had a container out for accepting money. How lazy is that?

Anyway, tourists were so stupid. They would put money in the container thinking this homeless person would do a trick (like some of the street performers down Las Ramblas). I mean WTF? THis person was clearly homeless and clearly not going to get off the lawn chair, yet people kept walking by, putting money in the container, and pausing for minutes watching and waiting for this homeless bum to do something. When they realized he/she was going to do ****, they'd walk off. One of the stupidest things I've seen.

 

[Mark from Plano]

Originally Posted by gdl203

Yes - they're Travellers. New Age nomads, if you'd like. There are dozens of thousands of them in Europe (especially the UK). Sort of a cross between gypsies and the historical Irish travellers.

Originally Posted by Dedalus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_punk

Apparently I lead a fairly sheltered life. I've not travelled in Europe a lot, but the ones I saw in Paris and Rome tended to be gypsies. I hadn't seen it in the US until that trip to the PNW.

 

[LabelKing]

One should also note that in China, there are these "hobo gangs" which consist of people who fake being homeless in order to beg, and then a kind of pimp collects the money. Sometimes they consist of children or disabled--"disabled"--people banded together, like some Dickens fantasy come to life.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

One should also note that in China, there are these "hobo gangs" which consist of people who fake being homeless in order to beg, and then a kind of pimp collects the money. Sometimes they consist of children or disabled--"disabled"--people banded together, like some Dickens fantasy come to life.

Much to your amusement no doubt.

Jon.

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Much to your amusement no doubt. Jon.
The police don't allow them on larger streets. They sometimes congregate outside higher-end restaurants in the evening.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

One should also note that in China, there are these "hobo gangs" which consist of people who fake being homeless in order to beg, and then a kind of pimp collects the money. Sometimes they consist of children or disabled--"disabled"--people banded together, like some Dickens fantasy come to life.

This is quite common in Europe among gypsies. Have you seen Emir Kusturica's Time of Gypsies ?

 

[denning]

I'll try to find it, but last year I saw a CBC documentary on the homeless in Toronto. The host of the documentary spent a week living on the streets meeting with and talking to homeless people. The majority are there by choice, they do this because they choose to. In the documentary the host found a number of jobs for the homeless people who claimed to not be able to find work. They didn't show up, or in most cases declined the job in the first place.

Many claim to not be able to find a place to sleep. There are shelters for these people, but they don't go to them, usually because of the "rules" that are attached to them (no alcohol). The host found places for some of the homeless in a shelter that would give them food, a roof over their head, and connections and opportunities for jobs. They left and went back to their street corners.

For a great many, homelessness is a lifestyle choice. Some are really good at it, and are able to live very comfortably doing this.

But it's because of the fact that for the majority homelessness is a choice that I choose not to give to homeless people. I'm not heartless, mean, or selfish, I give about 15% pre tax of my income away. I'm just not going to give money to someone who complains about their life after they chose to be sitting in that doorway.

I think the best advice in this thread has been the gift certificates. You can give with a semblance of control over how it's used.

 

[Concordia]

Weirdest case I ever saw was back in the late '80s on Charles St in Beacon Hill. I nice-looking girl in her 20s sat on the curb outside one of the gourmet iced cream shops wearing a cashmere sweater and asking "Spare dollar?" I suppose it could have been performance art.

We have stipulated to my daughter when she got an allowance that she earmark 25% to charity. One year, she asked if she could convert the whole $13 into quarters and hand them out one at a time on Harvard Square. I talked her out of that one, and I think a hospital was the eventual beneficiary.

Going back to the mental illness issue, the demographics might have shifted over time, due to changes in policy, mortality, and other factors. I do remember a synopsis from a speaker about 20 years ago on the relatively recent arrival of the problem. In his take, we got the perfect storm with the collision of liberal values and conservative policy. At some point in the late 70s, activists concerned with the mentally ill successfully campaigned for less institutionalization and more part-time support. Given the look of some institutions, I can imagine why. That trend was almost immediately followed by cuts in social services budget. So we got the worst of both worlds-- no permanent housing, no support for re-entry into society.