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Ghosts?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by JLibourel, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Senior member

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    we should compile this whole thread together and publish our first, SF Book of Ghost stories
     
  2. The Deacon

    The Deacon Senior member

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    There are many things in life that I've not experienced, yet I believe them. The reason I'm a non-believer in psychics, faith healing, intuition, etc... is that there is no real evidence for any of it. In fact the Amazing Randi has been offering a prize of $1,000,000 to anyone who can demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event, under test conditions agreed to by both parties. And no one has claimed this prize.

    If you and your family are truly 'gifted', I'd suggest you go collect your money! otherwise I call shenanigans.


    I believe in Italy and France and the moon landing although I've never seen them. I've seen evidence of them, Santoni and Paraboot and moon rocks. I don't regret that the information received by my uncle relative to the watch in 1968 was not under the guise of a double blind experiment. Much of what took place was real to someone and at times verified by someone else after the fact who had the information/evidence. There were no scientists, Dr.s or lawyers(how honest these professions are!) around at the time nor would it have been practical at the time. One man's "shenanigan's" is another's experience...

    I read Randi's challenge a few minutes ago and expected to see a similar spurious challenge as what the Gracie Jiu Jitsu family once offered. I read the protocals and think that it actually appears to be a workable test. Of the things I mentioned I could most readily see the possibility of testing empathic ability and the Afghanistan Ghost. Grandma's 90, I'm aware that she didn't have her mom's level of ability, would she be ok about the test? If not, there you go! It's all BS.

    A lack of evidence that is acceptable to you or Randi really does not disprove a things existence.
     
  3. The Deacon

    The Deacon Senior member

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    I tend to agree what you say here. I consider myself a big skeptic of everything. I'm a 'show me the proof' kind of guy. A recent study as of late has linked certain EMF fields acting on the a certain region of the brain to ghosts and god. The fields in some people create a feeling of being watched to actual hauntings. The scientists have measured these fields coming from alarm clocks to old house wiring.

    I do think we can explain away 99% of ghost stories and hauntings, but there are some things, as of yet, we can't explain. Although I see no reason to believe that ghosts, even if they do exist, suggest an after life of any sort..

    "I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking." -Carl Sagan


    It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.
     
  4. teddieriley

    teddieriley Senior member

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    Wait, you smell that?

    A lack of evidence that is acceptable to you or Randi really does not disprove a things existence.


    + 110%. And I don't want to hear, "it doesn't prove it either."
     
  5. converge

    converge Senior member

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    It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.

    Do you have a source for this? Or is it something you heard from someone else who heard from someone else? If so, it must be true.
     
  6. acidboy

    acidboy Senior member

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    If Bigfoot has been cited all these years, could it be possible he's really a ghost?
     
  7. rxcats

    rxcats Senior member

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    It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.

    This is bull. If it "is said", it wasn't by his wife.

    Ann Druyan, in the epilogue to Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (published posthumously in 1997),

    "Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."
     
  8. brissyboy

    brissyboy Senior member

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    ghosts freak me out
     
  9. nyc_gaucho

    nyc_gaucho Senior member

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    This is bull. If it "is said", it wasn't by his wife.

    Ann Druyan, in the epilogue to Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (published posthumously in 1997),

    "Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."


    carl sagan was a great man who dedicated his life to shepherding the human species through the minefields of our own ignorance...and, everything i've ever read or heard about him gives me no indication that he did not die as he lived...an agnostic...never an atheist...

    he resisted to be labeled as such...because he thought it was equally wrong (and dangerous) to unwaveringly accept something as truth, without any hard evidence, as it was to likewise negate it...

    but, if you ask me, there is not much greater evidence of a god than the fact that a man with such vision and conviction would give so much of himself, all to help save a species like ours, so seemingly doomed to destroy itself...the hope in his heart is a miracle
     
  10. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Another brief ghost story:

    This one doesn't involve anybody I knew but did involve one of the heroes of my youth (and today, for that matter), Col. Jim Corbett, famed for killing large numbers of man-eating tigers and leopards, even at an advanced age.

    In his classic The Man-Eaters of Kumaon in the chapter on "The Thak Man-Eater," he tells of hearing the screams of a man being killed by the tigress as he was sitting up one night for her. The weird part was, the man had been killed several weeks earlier, and no other human was in the vicinity when Corbett heard the screams. The screams also frightened several deer in the vicinity, so they were no figment of his imagination.

    Lest you argue that it was the cry of some night bird or jungle beast, this might have applied to a lesser man than Corbett, but he had spent 60+ years in the jungles of northern India. Nobody knew the jungle and its wildlife like Corbett, and he never would have made such a mistake.
     
  11. jkw

    jkw Senior member

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    After reading the whole thread, I can't help but feel a bit chilled... Never felt anything before, but I am now quite uncomfortable. I can't help but look behind myself every now and then, and afterwards it freaks me out... There's a mirror above my desk, and I'm avoiding it just in case hehe

    But when I think about it, there probably isn't even enough space for a ghost in my room [​IMG]
     
  12. rxcats

    rxcats Senior member

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    carl sagan was a great man who dedicated his life to shepherding the human species through the minefields of our own ignorance...and, everything i've ever read or heard about him gives me no indication that he did not die as he lived...an agnostic...never an atheist...

    he resisted to be labeled as such...because he thought it was equally wrong (and dangerous) to unwaveringly accept something as truth, without any hard evidence, as it was to likewise negate it...

    but, if you ask me, there is not much greater evidence of a god than the fact that a man with such vision and conviction would give so much of himself, all to help save a species like ours, so seemingly doomed to destroy itself...the hope in his heart is a miracle




    That depends on how you define god, agnostic and atheist. Dr. Sagan was a humanist and free-thinker. He discussed the concept of god in his book, Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science (published in 1979),

    "The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

    The "god" that Dr. Sagan describes above, is not the concept most theists hold dear. I would think most Christians would consider that to be atheism. Again, it is all in your definition.

    Another of his most famous quotes (from Cosmos) pretty much sums up his thoughts on ghosts and other "paranormal phenomena",

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
     
  13. nyc_gaucho

    nyc_gaucho Senior member

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    That depends on how you define god, agnostic and atheist. Dr. Sagan was a humanist and free-thinker. He discussed the concept of god in his book, Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science (published in 1979),

    "The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

    The "god" that Dr. Sagan describes above, is not the concept most theists hold dear. I would think most Christians would consider that to be atheism. Again, it is all in your definition.

    Another of his most famous quotes (from Cosmos) pretty much sums up his thoughts on ghosts and other "paranormal phenomena",

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."


    god = a creative intelligence

    atheist = one who believes that there is no god and that our lives are a mere coincidence of nature

    agnostic = one who hasn't been persuaded enough to believe or disbelieve in the existence of a god

    "I have some discomfort with both believers and with nonbelievers when their opinions are not based on facts ... If we don't know the answer, why are we under so much pressure to make up our minds, to declare our allegiance to one hypothesis or the other?" Carl Sagan

    the mysteries of life are so ponderous that even a great mind like carl sagan's was humbled by them...this makes it all the more ridiculous when the garden-variety atheists condescend to "believers" and pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe
     
  14. rxcats

    rxcats Senior member

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    god = a creative intelligence

    atheist = one who believes that there is no god and that our lives are a mere coincidence of nature

    agnostic = one who hasn't been persuaded enough to believe or disbelieve in the existence of a god

    "I have some discomfort with both believers and with nonbelievers when their opinions are not based on facts ... If we don't know the answer, why are we under so much pressure to make up our minds, to declare our allegiance to one hypothesis or the other?" Carl Sagan

    the mysteries of life are so ponderous that even a great mind like carl sagan's was humbled by them...this makes it all the more ridiculous when the garden-variety atheists condescend to "believers" and pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe


    The definitions you give above are the traditional ones. This is how you and I, and probably most others, would define the terms. It is not, however, the definition that Carl Sagan refers to. He did multiple interviews and books where he touches on the subject.

    In a 1996 interview with NPR's Talk of the Nation, Sagan said (when asked about religious beliefs): "Where's the evidence? Now, the word God is used to cover a wide variety of very different ideas, ranging maybe from the idea of an outsized light-skinned male with a long white beard who sits in a throne in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow--for which there is no evidence, none at all--to the view of Einstein, of Spinoza, which is essentially that God is the sum total of the laws of nature. And since there are laws of nature ... if that's what you mean by God, then of course there's a God. So everything depends on the definition of God."

    I don't "condescend" to believers. Most of my family (save one nephew) and virtually all of my close friends are believers to some degree. I certainly do not pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe either. It is a wondrous thing and we will never have all of the answers. I simply don't believe that the answer to the unknown is some form of magic or supernatural being.
     
  15. blantonator

    blantonator Senior member

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    It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.
    Claims like yours is why Dawkins plans on be recorded on his death bed. rxcats - my original post was very similar to yours... well said.
     
  16. nyc_gaucho

    nyc_gaucho Senior member

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    I don't "condescend" to believers. Most of my family (save one nephew) and virtually all of my close friends are believers to some degree. I certainly do not pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe either. It is a wondrous thing and we will never have all of the answers. I simply don't believe that the answer to the unknown is some form of magic or supernatural being.


    i'm glad if you are not the type to condescend (although your signature certainly suggests otherwise)...i also don't believe in any magic or supernatural being...but, that is because i don't believe that anything is supernatural...rather, i believe there are many things of a nature not yet fathomable by our limited minds...which is why i think it's important, from time to time, to quiet our minds and allow your other faculties to inform you a bit...you never know where that might lead you
     
  17. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    If Bigfoot has been cited all these years, could it be possible he's really a ghost?

    Actually, there are those who argue that bigfoots, mothmen, UFO aliens and similar weird and monstrous creatures are intruders from another dimension. I am in no position to discuss this. There is certainly nothing offensive to contemporary notions of matter and mind in the possibility of a giant, ape-like creature lurking undetected in the rain forests of the Northwest and perhaps elsewhere and unclassified by science, however improbable it may seem.
     
  18. merkur

    merkur Senior member

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  19. Bird's One View

    Bird's One View Senior member

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    Actually, there are those who argue that bigfoots, mothmen, UFO aliens and similar weird and monstrous creatures are intruders from another dimension. I am in no position to discuss this.
    Heh. It has been my sad experience that most of those who wish to discuss this are likewise in no position to do so.
     
  20. whodini

    whodini Senior member

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    Brought up this thread to my father last night at dinner. He confirmed the story I mentioned earlier of the house with "knocks." He reminded me that he wasn't the only one to hear the knocks as it happened to his brother and sister-in-law, too. Also, while he never saw anything in the house, my aunt and uncle recall a few odd instances. A few times they both would see sparks dance across the floor even though there was no fire in the room and they didn't cause anything to burn. They also had a night (maybe more) where they would wake up and BOTH see an old woman floating above their bed at a 45-degree angle, she then would disappear moments later.

    Another story he told was of his mother's best friend. This woman was married three times and swore that she was told of their deaths by themselves personally. The first husband died in a farming accident and came to her while she was in the kitchen. He told her she would find him in a certain part of the field but that she needed to pay attention because the papers she would need later were taped underneath the desk drawer. Her husband had never told her where he had hidden the papers before and without them she would have lost the farm. She said that with her next husband she was washing dishes when she noticed the top of her husband's hat bobbing across the window in front of her as if he was about to come inside but never did. He apparently died the day before but didn't find out until hours after "seeing him" walk by.
     

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