George Cleverley Anthony Cleverley Models

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Maverick972, Oct 9, 2010.

  1. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    None of this is different from what I said.

    it is. nvm.
     
  2. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    it is. nvm.

    How?
     
  3. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Let's go through the logic chain again.

    Cleverley says that the AC line is bespoke construction (i.e., handmade by English standards) on standard lasts. Several of their competitors have been telling customers that in fact the shoes are factory made at EG. This could be just a classic case of the competition pissing on the competition. Or it could be true. Nobody on SF really knows but a controversy was brewing in any case.

    I suggestsed (without knowing) that perhaps both are true. Maybe EG clicks and closes and Cleverley "makes." By "make" in this sense I meant the narrow, shoemaking definition: putting on the welt and the soles. Most non-geeks hear the word "make" and they think of the entire process of taking raw materials and producing a finished product. But in shoemaking, "making" is a specific task, and only part of the process. To "make" the shoe is to take an upper that is all stitched together already and puts on the welt and sole. The same person can do all these tasks but in most cases today they don't. Certainly, at Cleverley different people click and other people make.

    It's just speculation.

    Anyway, if it's true that the entire shoe is produced at EG, it suggests that Cleverley is being dishonest or at least misleading about the range. That is, unless they have someone there doing the welts and soles by hand. But bengal says they don't.
     
  4. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    How?

    not of importance.

    i take it back. no worries.
     
  5. Maverick972

    Maverick972 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody on SF really knows but a controversy was brewing in any case.


    There are a few very knowledgeable SFers that claim they "know" that the shoes are made by EG. I won't name names for obvious reasons, but they have me convinced. I may be a fool. I will say that we never talked about whether the shoes were made entirely in the factory. To Manton's credit, his speculation sounds reasonable.
     
  6. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    There are a few very knowledgeable SFers that claim they "know" that the shoes are made by EG. I won't name names for obvious reasons, but they have me convinced. I may be a fool. I will say that we never talked about whether the shoes were made entirely in the factory. To Manton's credit, his speculation sounds reasonable.

    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.
     
  7. Maverick972

    Maverick972 Well-Known Member

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    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.


    The people that I have talked to, most have no affiliation with either company. Great shoes, nonetheless. Thank you for your input, Manton.
     
  8. LeatherSOUL

    LeatherSOUL Senior member

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    I can assure all of you, the AC line is not made by EG. As it has been stated in the past, GC uses workrooms all around England to produce shoes in parts. When the AC line first originated, it was made fully in the bespoke workroom in London. As the popularity has grown, parts of the production of AC shoes have been given to the workrooms GC uses to complete. However, every single AC pair goes through the London workroom during production and after it is completed.

    If you have seen a pair of AC shoes, you will know that it is distinctively Cleverley and in no way looks like an EG or even EG TD.

    Saying a shoe is made by EG versus saying a shoe is welted a Cleverley staff member at the EG factory is a totally different thing in my opinion. (This is just an example as I do not know exactly what work is done where.)
     
  9. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    Without a shadow of a doubt, those soles are stitched-on by machine.


    What do you look for to differentiate hand vs machine stitched? I notice that on my G&G bespokes that the sole is much more recessed in and perhaps the stitching is finer. What do you see?
     
  10. cdmoore1855

    cdmoore1855 Senior member

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    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.


    I agree that the shoes are far sharper looking than EG and the soles much better. At their price point, i think its not possible to offer a bespoke handmade shoe on standard lasts for 40% of the cost of their full bespoke. As tom says, they have many workshops all over the country, yes probably the sheds that the outworkers use in their back gardens.
     
  11. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    What do you look for to differentiate hand vs machine stitched?


    [​IMG]

    This is a hand-stitched sole made the traditional English way. The "˜maker' (the person doing the "˜bottom work') uses a "˜fudge wheel' which gets pressed into the damp welt and leaves indentation marks. These indentations are his guide where to place the hand stitches: one stitch goes right into every "˜valley' (s/he has different wheels, depending how many stitches he wants to place per inch).

    Once the stitching is finished, the same fudge wheel goes right over it again, pressing the stitches deep into every valley. If the second wheeling doesn't hit the original indentations, but creates additional ones, then he is "˜making babies' (bad).

    [​IMG]

    Here is a shoe made by Marcell in Budapest. He uses a different (fork-like) tool, called a "˜stitch marker' to place his indentations. Again, he stitches into the indentations and once all the stitches are done, he uses the same stitch marker to "˜separate' the stitches and squeeze them down. What both methods have in common, each stitch sits right at the bottom of it's individual indentation.

    [​IMG]

    By contrast, this is stitched by machine: all the stitches sit on top of the welt. There is a wheeling at the outside edge, but this is purely decorative. (There are other industrial methods where hundreds of tiny cuts are placed into the welt to let the stitches sink in.)
     
  12. Fishball

    Fishball Senior member

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    By contrast, this is stitched by machine: all the stitches sit on top of the welt. There is a wheeling at the outside edge, but this is purely decorative. (There are other industrial methods where hundreds of tiny cuts are placed into the welt to let the stitches sink in.)


    bengal-stripe,

    I agreeded with you that the "traditional" english ways to stitiching the sole are as you said.
    But I do see some "hand stitiching" welt are done as the "machine way" you mentioned in Hong Kong. So, I don't think it can be a "proof".
     
  13. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    The construction is entirely different to any EG I've ever handled, .
    How it different?
     
  14. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    What do you look for to differentiate hand vs machine stitched? I notice that on my G&G bespokes that the sole is much more recessed in and perhaps the stitching is finer. What do you see?
    Stitching is jagged.
    lt always obvious (see mid picture of Bengal Stripe).
    End of 1st stitch and start of 2nd stitch ect (welt-outsole) not flow and not consistant
    Machine never do like that.
    Put under dim light in dark and see shadow of the stitches,
    it show easy.
     
  15. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    [​IMG]


    lt easy see hand stitch welt/outsole.
    Almost machine look,
    but easy see hand look to good eye.
     

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