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George Cleverley Anthony Cleverley Models

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Maverick972, Oct 9, 2010.

  1. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    Mr. Glasgow added a brogueing along the topline and imitation lacing...which made me want to order it

    [​IMG]


    Gorgeous shoes, many congrats and thanks for clarifying too!
     
  2. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    I thought that the point if these was to offer a stock shoe made and finished like the bespoke numbers, a la Gomez and Scafora? Hand lasted and hand welted, with high quality leathers for the uppers.

    - B
     
  3. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    They are supposed to be bespoke make on standard lasts. However, several competitors insist that the shoes are factory made. They don't look to me like something that could come out of EG or even Lobb but I have no way of knowing either way.

    I suppose it's possible that EG is doing the clicking and the closing then GJC bespoke outworkers do the making by hand. That would make both claims more or less true. Pure speculation on my part.
     
  4. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    I suppose it's possible that EG is doing the clicking and the closing then GJC bespoke outworkers do the making by hand. That would make both claims more or less true. Pure speculation on my part.

    when, they are clicked and closed, what kind of making should the outworker do?
     
  5. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    when, they are clicked and closed, what kind of making should the outworker do?

    Lasting, welting, putting on the sole. That's what "making" is in shoe terminology, I believe.

    Anyway I think that is where the biggest differentiation between bespoke and RTW comes in (apart from skins and lasts). The uppers for both are sewn together by machine. High end RTW is clicked by hand. So at that point, apart from the skin, there may be little difference in terms of construction. It's the rest where all the time-intensive handwork comes in and where you can see the difference (in the sole and waist, mostly).

    I can say this. I've been to the Lobb and EG factories. I've seen and worn Lobb Prestige and seen but not worn EG TD. The soles are very good. But they don't quite look bespoke or handmade--because they aren't. I've also got several pairs of Cleverley bespoke. The AC sole and waist (seen but not worn) look to me like Cleverley bespoke not Lobb Prestige or EG TD.

    Not proof of anything, just sayin'.
     
  6. Michael Ay329

    Michael Ay329 Senior member

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    [​IMG] ! Absolutely beautiful! How long was the wait?

    Ordered in February 2009 and got them 3 months later....they were delivered sooner than quoted.
     
  7. Michael Ay329

    Michael Ay329 Senior member

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    I suppose it's possible that EG is doing the clicking and the closing then GJC bespoke outworkers do the making by hand. That would make both claims more or less true. Pure speculation on my part.

    I had asked if Fosters would replicate their bespoke designs, but on EG lasts since they offer EG's MTO & RTW shoes. Kind of reverse to what Manton noted, I had hoped Fosters would click the leathers and then provide them to EG to put on the last & soles...and then finish them.

    To their credit, they looked into it...since they have a good relationship with EG, but they replied it would cost almost as much as bespoke to do this...so this idea was nixed
     
  8. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    ............ then GJC bespoke outworkers do the making by hand.

    Without a shadow of a doubt, those soles are stitched-on by machine.

    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    Lasting, welting, putting on the sole. That's what "making" is in shoe terminology, I believe.

    Although the shoemaker in old tales is pictured as being a solitary worker, after the early 1700s shoemakers began to join together in individual shops. Each of the members would specialize in a particular procedure in the process of shoemaking.

    Some of the members would do several of the tasks; for instance, the clicker, whose job was to cut the leather for the uppers, was often the maker, who measured the customer's feet and who made the final assembly of the shoes. Other members of the shop would include the patternmaker, who made the patterns from which the leather was cut; the closer, who prepared and sewed the leather uppers together; the finisher, who lined, dyed, and waxed the shoes after the maker had fastened the soles to the uppers.(source: Southern Polytechnic State University)
     
  10. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Although the shoemaker in old tales is pictured as being a solitary worker, after the early 1700s shoemakers began to join together in individual shops. Each of the members would specialize in a particular procedure in the process of shoemaking.

    Some of the members would do several of the tasks; for instance, the clicker, whose job was to cut the leather for the uppers, was often the maker, who measured the customer's feet and who made the final assembly of the shoes. Other members of the shop would include the patternmaker, who made the patterns from which the leather was cut; the closer, who prepared and sewed the leather uppers together; the finisher, who lined, dyed, and waxed the shoes after the maker had fastened the soles to the uppers.(source: Southern Polytechnic State University)


    None of this is different from what I said. I know that one person doesn't produce an entire pair of shoes by himself. What I said was that "making" is the cordwainer's term for putting on the welt and the sole. At G&G, for instance, Tony clicks and closes and Dean "makes." Cleverley is the same way.

    All I am saying is that it's possible that the AC line is clicked and closed in a factory and then "made" by Cleverley bespoke workers. Bengal says no, which is fine with me, my eye is not that good.
     
  11. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    None of this is different from what I said.

    it is. nvm.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    it is. nvm.

    How?
     
  13. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Let's go through the logic chain again.

    Cleverley says that the AC line is bespoke construction (i.e., handmade by English standards) on standard lasts. Several of their competitors have been telling customers that in fact the shoes are factory made at EG. This could be just a classic case of the competition pissing on the competition. Or it could be true. Nobody on SF really knows but a controversy was brewing in any case.

    I suggestsed (without knowing) that perhaps both are true. Maybe EG clicks and closes and Cleverley "makes." By "make" in this sense I meant the narrow, shoemaking definition: putting on the welt and the soles. Most non-geeks hear the word "make" and they think of the entire process of taking raw materials and producing a finished product. But in shoemaking, "making" is a specific task, and only part of the process. To "make" the shoe is to take an upper that is all stitched together already and puts on the welt and sole. The same person can do all these tasks but in most cases today they don't. Certainly, at Cleverley different people click and other people make.

    It's just speculation.

    Anyway, if it's true that the entire shoe is produced at EG, it suggests that Cleverley is being dishonest or at least misleading about the range. That is, unless they have someone there doing the welts and soles by hand. But bengal says they don't.
     
  14. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    How?

    not of importance.

    i take it back. no worries.
     
  15. Maverick972

    Maverick972 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody on SF really knows but a controversy was brewing in any case.


    There are a few very knowledgeable SFers that claim they "know" that the shoes are made by EG. I won't name names for obvious reasons, but they have me convinced. I may be a fool. I will say that we never talked about whether the shoes were made entirely in the factory. To Manton's credit, his speculation sounds reasonable.
     
  16. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There are a few very knowledgeable SFers that claim they "know" that the shoes are made by EG. I won't name names for obvious reasons, but they have me convinced. I may be a fool. I will say that we never talked about whether the shoes were made entirely in the factory. To Manton's credit, his speculation sounds reasonable.

    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.
     
  17. Maverick972

    Maverick972 Well-Known Member

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    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.


    The people that I have talked to, most have no affiliation with either company. Great shoes, nonetheless. Thank you for your input, Manton.
     
  18. LeatherSOUL

    LeatherSOUL Senior member

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    I can assure all of you, the AC line is not made by EG. As it has been stated in the past, GC uses workrooms all around England to produce shoes in parts. When the AC line first originated, it was made fully in the bespoke workroom in London. As the popularity has grown, parts of the production of AC shoes have been given to the workrooms GC uses to complete. However, every single AC pair goes through the London workroom during production and after it is completed.

    If you have seen a pair of AC shoes, you will know that it is distinctively Cleverley and in no way looks like an EG or even EG TD.

    Saying a shoe is made by EG versus saying a shoe is welted a Cleverley staff member at the EG factory is a totally different thing in my opinion. (This is just an example as I do not know exactly what work is done where.)
     
  19. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    Without a shadow of a doubt, those soles are stitched-on by machine.


    What do you look for to differentiate hand vs machine stitched? I notice that on my G&G bespokes that the sole is much more recessed in and perhaps the stitching is finer. What do you see?
     
  20. cdmoore1855

    cdmoore1855 Senior member

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    I am guessing that they " know" the same way I "know": a competitor told me. Not saying it's untrue, it may well be true.

    Like I said, the shoes look different from EG make to me. Then again, bengal says they are machine-soled, and I believe he would know. If they are machine-soled, then any claim that they are bespoke make would be non-credible.


    I agree that the shoes are far sharper looking than EG and the soles much better. At their price point, i think its not possible to offer a bespoke handmade shoe on standard lasts for 40% of the cost of their full bespoke. As tom says, they have many workshops all over the country, yes probably the sheds that the outworkers use in their back gardens.
     

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