Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by luk-cha, Apr 7, 2011.
haaa! yes, test it out. better yet, post a video!
This morning, Buccleugh.
Me study G&G heel very very careful and almost certain the main part of heel made of wood.
Bottom of heel has leather strip with rubber moon piece.
Rest of heel is wood with leather cover over it,
it easy to see where cover is put over it.
Heel to light for all leather.
Wood heel very common in modern day now.
It cheap and easy to use wood and cover with leather stack.
Easy to see where heel touch upper,
it have very very small groove here.
Front part of heel have no cover,
only round part have it.
Wood heel and cover very very common now.
Full leather heel way much much more.
have you noticed any disadvantages?
lt very good,
but art lost in factory heel look.
it look dead.
It save lot of leather in rtw wood heel,
most manufacture do it now in mid end to low/medium high end.
Me wonder who make heel for G&G rtw and many men shoe brand.
Lost art in heel making,
not many have skill now,
it all gone because not many man make stack heel.
At least in the tradition that I was taught, leather outsoles are mounted in a tempered condition...meaning that they have been wet and then allowed to dry back to a moist but not yet totally dry state. While in this tempered state, they are easily shaped--and will conform to the contours of the last.
That said, any waist treatment needs to be built on a solid foundation. Simply shaping the waist will not do it. Fiddleback waists are built-up to obtain that shape before the outsole is mounted. If they weren't, there would be an insufficiency...a cavity...between the outsole and the insole.
Beyond that, of course, the edges of both the forepart and the waist are often shaped with specially designed irons (collices) using moisture, heat, and wax.
Actually I'd be interested in knowing how you came to this conclusion...what evidence do you have? The heels on many cheap women's shoes are covered wood but I would be surprised if G&G has taken that route. I don't guess it's impossible, but in photographs posted here I am seeing zero indication that the heels are anything but stacked leather.
It might be said that manufacturers commonly use pre-stacked leather heel bases. And they're relatively cheap.
The companies that make these heel stacks buy clicker's scraps from the shoemakers. From this scrap, they cut and glue the lifts together, compress them mightily to harden the heel base, and sell them back to the makers. What's left from that process goes to a separate division of the same (sometimes) company that makes leatherboard and leatherboard heels.
The point is, that what's being used is mostly margins--around the belly and neck and so forth. That's why you see flanky and poor quality in the, often destructively deconstructed, layers of a stacked leather heel such as you referenced in another thread.
The more I think about it, the more I suspect that a leather covered wood base might actually cost more than a common pre-stacked leather base.
+1 although you could like those soles till kingdom come if that's your thing.
Heel is very light,
this indicate that wood has been used.
Me can see a cover edge on heel,
it run all along top of heel and is raised.
Me ask Dean and see what he say.
Wood more cheap and more easy to make heel with.
Factory like wood for heel making.
Wood heel prefered now over factory made leather heel.
Me check again,
but maker and owner of factories tell me different.
Me try to report back later about this.
What model is this?
What color suede is this?
Actually I've noticed even the very highest end RTW women's shoes (obviously not the bespoke shoes you or other makers would produce) above a 2'" heel use wood, or plastic covered in leather since a metal shaft is present and often may comprise a substantial portion of the heel volume for solidity. I've also notice only the very extreme low end men's shoes (stuff folks here wouldn't be caught dead in) use wood covered in leather. In such low heels there is no reason but extreme cheapness to use leather covered wood. In such cases the raw wood heels can be mass produced using CNC machinery very quickly.
Pre-assembled heel-blocks are supplied by many tanneries.
Here is Rendenbach’s product, which comes in a two- or three-ply version: 8mm (1/3”) and 12mm (1/2”). Unlike anything cobbled together from scraps, you can be certain, thanks to modern digital splitting machines, that the thickness is correct and not just approximate.
After all, not many firms, be they large or small, get their soling leather anymore in the shape of hides. Here is Rendenbach’s sole leather: pre-cut and with the Rendenbach logo already in place. Did nobody ever wonder why Vass has the logo always placed right in the centre of the sole? Because that’s the way they get them delivered (although I believe, R will also supply pre-cut soles without the logo if requested).
Even bespoke makers do not cut the pieces out of a big hide: Baker (the English maker’s leather of choice) is also offered pre-cut (although not in the shape of soles, but as rectangles). There is leather for soles, insoles, pre-cut welts, stiffeners: all pre-cut.
Previously we had some pictures of the G&G production and it showed quite clearly pre-fabricated heel blocks (someone commented about that).
I am pretty certain that is what G&G is using.
I would be quite surprised if anyone...even Rendenbach...used prime outsoling to make heel stacks. And it is likewise doubtful that lifts, stacks or pre-cut outsoles are squirted out in pre-determined shapes and sizes. They have to be cut from the hide or bend somewhere in time, IOW.
Rendenbach and Baker are tanneries at bottom. It makes sense that they would click outsoles and lifts if they could, rather than allow a third party to make the profit...simply because pre-clicked components sell at a higher profit margin than the uncut leather. A bend or side is sold by the pound, cut soles are sold by the piece.
But not all heel stacks or cut soles come from tanneries. In the US we have a couple of outfits (where once there were many)that operate much as I described--buying from manufacturers and or third parties who are clicking outsoles. (And when they glue up and compress the stacks they are pretty accurate as to thickness and size....probably just as accurate as Rendenbach--it is not new technology)
As for bespoke makers...I don't know who you've been talking to but the assertion makes no sense.
I don't know of a bespoke maker in the States who would deliberately pay more for a cut outsole of perhaps inadequate length and width, rather than cut from a bend purchased at a considerable discount relative "fabricated" components. Clickers...even those which are tanneries, first...are like shoe manufacturers--they do not offer components in every conceivable size.
The very nature of bespoke work dictates that some outsoles, for example, exceed the length offered by clickers and, conversely, some shoes will be small enough that it makes no sense to pay the premium only to throw away a substantial portion generated by using too large a cut sole. It is tantamount to throwing away profit. No one, not even bespoke makers charging top dollar can afford to do that.
Beyond that, with bespoke work the chances that a fabricated heel stack will have to be custom fitted to the heel seat of the shoe approaches unity. It is easier by far to build the stack up one lift at a time...leveling each...than try to sculpt the bottom of a pre-made heel stack to fit without gaps.
It is significant, for those paying attention, that Rendenbach and Baker offer sides or bends to the small maker. If bespoke makers were not cutting...and there is every reason to do so, from utilizing the unique properties of each part of a bend, to the sheer wrong-headedness of tying up cash-flow in all kinds of components that may not be used at any foreseeable time...such outfits would not offer nor have a market for bends and sides.
And outside of the US, I suspect...given recent postings on his blog...that James Carreducker cuts his outsoles and lifts from bends, as does Marcel and more than a few others. I could be wrong, and maybe some bespoke makers do use fabricated components...but it's dern sure not the way this bespoke maker does it.
It's like TV dinners or eating out at a restaurant every night--in the West, there's not enough profit on bespoke shoes, at any price, to pay someone else to do the work for you. Putting aside the question of quality control, it begs the question as to who is the actual maker of the shoe---are you a shoemaker if you buy pre-fabricated uppers, as well?
And, while it may have changed by now, Rendenbach was, at one time in the not too distant past, adamant about not selling any cutsoles without their logo stamped squarely in the center and on the grain side.
Separate names with a comma.