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Gaining strength vs losing fat

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by KayJay85, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. suited

    suited Senior member

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    This is 100% utterly and completely wrong. Assuming you're dieting correctly, and lifting at an appropriate intensity/volume level, you can gain strength while losing fat. You won't be putting on size, but if you want to lean out and increase your numbers, this is definitely possible. I want to re-iterate that what the previous poster said is wrong. Not because I want to be right and fuck everything else, but because its possible. Make sure you regulate your intensity. Find what works for you - I found I was only able to do SS until a certain point, then everything stalled. I have currently been leaning out and increasing all my lifts using ironaddict's simple power-based routine. If you're serious about leaning out and getting stronger, go to ironaddicts.com and read up there about how to do it properly. Here, you're gonna get lots of people spitting bro-science.
    Congratulations. It's also possible to squat 900lbs and bench 600lbs. Luckily, there are people that have been in this game long enough so they have the ability to understand the context of the question and have the ability to apply the most logical outcome across the majority of people. It is humanly possible? Sure. However, unless you're one of my two examples I listed in my first post, you wont add strength (to any meaningful degree, which I also pointed out above) while losing weight. You might add some lbs to your big 3, but you aren't going to drop 20lbs while simultaneously adding 60lbs to your bench press (again, unless you're a newbie, steroids, or have exceptional genetics).
     
  2. cross22

    cross22 Senior member

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    WTF is with all the nonsense? The guy didn't say anything about gaining mass, he talked about gaining strength. Gaining strength and muscle are two different things, even though they generally correlate.

    OP, gaining strength and losing fat are not conflicting, gaining mass and losing fat are. Go ahead with whatever program you want just make sure you eat calories to lose and set your set/rep range for maximum strength gain.
     
  3. suited

    suited Senior member

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    WTF is with all the nonsense? The guy didn't say anything about gaining mass, he talked about gaining strength. Gaining strength and muscle are two completely different things, even though they generally correlate. OP, gaining strength and losing fat are not conflicting, gaining mass and losing fat are. Go ahead with whatever program you want just make sure you eat calories to lose and set your set/rep range for maximum strength gain.
    Yea, because we all know that these two are completely unrelated [​IMG] Strength gains, to any meaningful degree, typically come from gaining mass. The only individuals that typically add a lot of strength without adding mass are newbies, genetic freaks, and people using anabolic steroids. He is basically asking "am I going to get a lot stronger while losing weight"? Could your lifts to up a little? Sure, but I'm assuming he's talking about significant strength gains, not adding 10lbs to a lift. The same people always ask these questions and the same thing always happens. The end up in a limbo of bulking and cutting without ever sticking to one or the other long enough to make a difference. They can't grasp the concept that if you want to lose some fat, you might have to sacrifice some strength - or your strength might have to remain stagnant for a bit. People always want the best of both worlds, at all times. Well, you can't always have that. It sucks, but you have to understand that it's a game of give and take.
     
  4. cross22

    cross22 Senior member

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    ^ Dude what the hell are you talking about? This is what happens when you read magazines all day and have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Spend a few days around powerlifters and olympics weightlifters and you will learn that gaining strength has nothing to do with gaining mass.
     
  5. jarude

    jarude Senior member

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    poop mouth

    Serious mang, throwing out lines like "there are people that have been in this game long enough so they have the ability to understand the context of the question and have the ability to apply the most logical outcome across the majority of people" just makes you look like a douche. Congratulations on being in "the game" long enough to "have the ability to understand the context of the question." Considering you don't even know what he lifts right now, and don't know his situation outside him wanting to get stronger + get leaner, you just sound like an ignorant dickbag.

    Your argument sucks. Saying "sure, you might add some lbs to your big 3" - well, thanks for proving my point. Obviously people aren't going to make ironclad progress on every single exercise every single time on a deficit - I don't think people are going to be sad about missing a few curls if their squat/DL is still improving while getting leaner. Furthermore, I was under the impression that gaining strength referred to your big 3 going up - thank you again.

    Speaking in general (applying the logical outcome across the majority of people), you can gain significant strength past newbie gains and without anabolics on a deficit. Yeah, if you wanna squat 900, you're going to need some mass. You're taking it to an extreme degree in your "understanding of the context of the question" - yeah, if you want to gain elite strength over a long period of time, a deficit might not be beneficial. There is a middle ground between "10 lbs on a lift" and squatting 900 pounds. Proper dieting + appropriate exercise = sustainable strength gains until you hit single digit BF.

    Are you just mad, had a bad personal experience, or what? Countless respected strength coaches, athletes, and other authorities on the topic (not bodybuilding.com) have repeatedly affirmed the fact that significant strength gains on caloric deficits are possible, unless your BF is really low already. Considering the tone of your post, I'm gonna go with "u mad" and leave it at that.

    edit: re-reading your post, its clear you really don't have an understanding of the context of the question or however you so irritatingly put it. Nobody said they were going to drop 20lbs and add 60lbs to their bench - you're giving poor examples. You're confusing "significant" with "unrealistic." Again, considering you essentially agreed with me while claiming I was wrong because massive - not significant - strength gains aren't feasible on a deficit. You also did so in a manner that makes you look like a fuck. Congrats.
     
  6. suited

    suited Senior member

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    gaining strength has nothing to do with gaining mass.
    If nothing else, this is absolute proof that you have no idea what you're talking about, and probably very little actual experience yourself. For the average joe in the gym, gaining strength is highly correlated to gaining mass. Again, we're talking about significant strength gains, not adding a few pounds to a lift. Based on the logic you've provided thus far, the answer to every single bb or pl question should be "yes", simply because someone, somewhere has done it before (in this case, mostly professional athletes). The average person in the gym is not going to add a ton of strength while on a cut, bottom line.
    Spend a few days around power lifters and Olympic weightlifters
    Olympic weightlifters? Now you're comparing the average joe to the most genetically and athletically gifted people on the planet while simultaneously posing as a beacon of practical advice? [​IMG]
     
  7. cross22

    cross22 Senior member

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    [​IMG] If the guy who lives to get stronger does so without...

    Oh fuck it.
     
  8. AlexWb

    AlexWb Well-Known Member

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    Jarude is correct. The process (often referred to as a re-composition/re-comp) is not one for those seeking immediate gratification but is also generally simpler to maintain. Lean mass CAN be added, but slowly and only if you get the balance of diet versus workout just right, and this is where most fail- a true recomp won't happen with a casual approach to your diet and workout.

    I like your username [​IMG]


    Piggybacking on this topic, a friend told me that doing cardio after you life is good for the "losing fat" part, while the lifting is obviously getting you stronger. Is this effective if done 3x a week with a good diet?
     
  9. Gradstudent78

    Gradstudent78 Senior member

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    I like your username [​IMG]


    Piggybacking on this topic, a friend told me that doing cardio after you life is good for the "losing fat" part, while the lifting is obviously getting you stronger. Is this effective if done 3x a week with a good diet?


    If your good diet involves limiting food intake enough to cause a deficit.
     
  10. AlexWb

    AlexWb Well-Known Member

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    If your good diet involves limiting food intake enough to cause a deficit.

    I see. Thank you
     
  11. uNiCoRnPriNcEsSx

    uNiCoRnPriNcEsSx Senior member

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    i think its possible. i started the 5x5 3 days a week after new years, cardio on the inbetween days and am eating

    breakfast: 2 eggs + blueberries + apple + banana

    lunch: chicken salad (wiht chicken breast i baked myself) + avocado + sprouts

    same chicken salad for dinner / fish + veggies for dinner

    and i've noticed significant loss of fat in just almost three weeks. granted, i lost my ability to rep my bodyweight 5x a set, i'll be back on track in a month or so.

    diet and spartican adherence to increasingly heavier workouts is key.
     
  12. mm84321

    mm84321 Senior member

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    Piggybacking on this topic, a friend told me that doing cardio after you life is good for the "losing fat" part, while the lifting is obviously getting you stronger. Is this effective if done 3x a week with a good diet?

    If you are creating a considerable deficit through diet, the effect of burning a few more hundred calories through aerobic exercise is unlikely to have much of an impact. In fact, too much aerobic exercise can be a detriment to your fat loss goals. Lyle Mcdonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook goes more into detail about this. I can send it to anyone who is interested.
     
  13. suited

    suited Senior member

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    i think its possible. i started the 5x5 3 days a week after new years, cardio on the inbetween days and am eating

    breakfast: 2 eggs + blueberries + apple + banana

    lunch: chicken salad (wiht chicken breast i baked myself) + avocado + sprouts

    same chicken salad for dinner / fish + veggies for dinner

    and i've noticed significant loss of fat in just almost three weeks. granted, i lost my ability to rep my bodyweight 5x a set, i'll be back on track in a month or so.

    diet and spartican adherence to increasingly heavier workouts is key.


    5 x 5 is a great program (it's what I'm currently using) and probably the best bet if you're going to attempt it. Again, I'm assuming the OP is not a newbie. Take your average lifter that's been in the gym for 5 years. Typically, as that person eats below maintenance and starts to lose weight, their strength gains are going to slow down, and in most cases, remain stagnant depending upon how long their cut is and how much weight they lose.

    Telling someone that's been in the gym for several years, "Yes, you're going to continue to see significant strength gains while cutting" is not practical advice, IMO. Mentioning olympic athletes or career athletes isn't really applicable to the average person.
     
  14. stylenooob

    stylenooob Well-Known Member

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    ^ Dude what the hell are you talking about? This is what happens when you read magazines all day and have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Spend a few days around powerlifters and olympics weightlifters and you will learn that gaining strength has nothing to do with gaining mass.

    Errr, what? I train with oly and power lifting competitors (recreational, not national-level guys). I just started an Oly program myself. I can absolutely, 100%, assure you that if a guy comes in at 6'2"and 180 lbs the first reaction your going to get from Oly and Power lifters is you need to gain some weight. 6'2" and 180 lbs is muscle profile of a distance runner, especially if 5-10 lbs of that is extra body fat.

    5 x 5 is a great program (it's what I'm currently using) and probably the best bet if you're going to attempt it. Again, I'm assuming the OP is not a newbie. Take your average lifter that's been in the gym for 5 years. Typically, as that person eats below maintenance and starts to lose weight, their strength gains are going to slow down, and in most cases, remain stagnant depending upon how long their cut is and how much weight they lose.

    Telling someone that's been in the gym for several years, "Yes, you're going to continue to see significant strength gains while cutting" is not practical advice, IMO. Mentioning olympic athletes or career athletes isn't really applicable to the average person.


    Right. +1, as they say.

    But the OP (is he even reading this thread still?) is likely a strength training beginner. If he's 6'2" and 180 lbs, and carrying a little extra fat, there is almost no room on that frame for much muscle. So probably any program/diet will cause him to get stronger for a while.
     
  15. KayJay85

    KayJay85 Senior member

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    Thanks to all for the replies (and healthy debate [​IMG])

    To give context, I have been in an out of the gym over the last 3yrs but never really stuck to a program. I try to get to the gym 2x week and do 20mins cardio then go around a couple of weight machines before hitting the showers. Never really got serious because I didnt use a program to keep track with (hopefully using SS will help me there). I have never been too conscious of my diet other than minimizing sodas.

    TLDR: I am a beginner

    I figured that if I do SS then I will put on mass while gaining strength. However, I want to deal with my tummy as well and wasnt sure if that can be done simultaneously.

    Also, now I gotta search for a whole tonne more data on eating at a deficit

    Thanks
     
  16. asdf

    asdf Senior member

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    Strength gains, to any meaningful degree, typically come from gaining mass.

    No. Much of "strength" is a neural thing. Besides, plenty of people get stronger in the training long run while staying the same weight.

    No, that is exactly not what he said. If you could correctly "understand the context of the question," you would read that he asked if its possible to gain strength while losing FAT, not weight. This is very possible.

    Gaining strength while losing weight is much harder depending on the circumstances, so is gaining mass while losing fat. You have failed to "understand the context of the question" and provided several posts worth of garbage poop mouth advice. Apparently you haven't "been in the game long enough."
     
  17. suited

    suited Senior member

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    No. Much of "strength" is a neural thing. Besides, plenty of people get stronger in the training long run while staying the same weight. No, that is exactly not what he said. If you could correctly "understand the context of the question," you would read that he asked if its possible to gain strength while losing FAT, not weight. This is very possible. Gaining strength while losing weight is much harder depending on the circumstances, so is gaining mass while losing fat. You have failed to "understand the context of the question" and provided several posts worth of garbage poop mouth advice. Apparently you haven't "been in the game long enough."
    Don't school me on the context of his question while at the same time taking my quote out of context. For the average joe hitting the gym a few times a week, strength gains are definitely correlated with gaining size. Recreational lifters (that aren't newbies) that are gaining strength while losing weight are a minority. Yes, it has been done. You might "know a guy" that did it, but that's irrelevant because it makes the most sense to give reasonable advice, not answering every question with a 'yes' simply because it's humanly possible.
     
  18. asdf

    asdf Senior member

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    Don't school me on the context of his question while at the same time taking my quote out of context. For the average joe hitting the gym a few times a week, strength gains are definitely correlated with gaining size. Recreational lifters (that aren't newbies) that are gaining strength while losing weight are a minority. Yes, it has been done. You might "know a guy" that did it, but that's irrelevant because it makes the most sense to give reasonable advice, not answering every question with a 'yes' simply because it's humanly possible.

    Yet again, you miss the point.

    "losing weight" and "losing fat" are not the same thing. The OP asked about losing fat, to which you answered some garbage broscience about losing weight, and have continued. I repeat: you have not understood the question correctly.

    Furthermore, it is entirely possible to gain strength while staying the same WEIGHT. This would imply, as you have somewhat correctly hinted, that the subject is gaining muscle mass and losing FAT(although much of the gains, depending on training age, would be neural/technique based). This is exactly what everyone else in this thread has been talking about, a "re-comp." Meanwhile you have blathered on about irrelevant bullshit while touting how correctly you have understood the question.
     
  19. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    its wrong to say mass gains have nothing to do with strength gains, but neural adaptations of musculature is a bigger factor in strength gains than muscle size

    http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/r.../01/neural.cfm

    you also have to realize there's two different kinds of hypertrophy. one kind increases the size of the sarcolema (done by submaximal load lifting by bodybuilders, has little correlation with strength). one kind increases the size of the myofibrils (done by near maximal effort, has good correlation with strength)

    here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_hypertrophy

    this is a good read


    i think you should just take a step back and just think about what people are saying. people that are telling you what you said is wrong are saying it for a reason
     
  20. jarude

    jarude Senior member

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    meh, people just want to be "right" and get mad when their own personal experiences and dimwitted interpretations don't match up to, in this case, commonly accepted knowledge amongst those most qualified. not that im most qualified - far from it -, but the strength coaches/lifters etc who have proven this repeatedly.

    when you look at the advice and arguments given, its pretty easy to see this guy is a dunce. move on, let brosef be "right," while the rest of the informed world recomps successfully.
     

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