Fused vs unfused suits

[FCS]

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/F...?TOPIC_ID=1005

All medium priced suits and quite a few expensive ones are, at least semi-fused. How do you spot the difference? Go to the bottom end of the jacket front and pull the fabric apart. You feel the outer fabric and the facing. If you feel an additional layer of fabric, then this is floating canvas. If you cannot feel a third layer and the outside fabric feels considerably firmer than the facing, then it's fused.

Just visited some dept stores yesterday to apply this little test. I found that almost all of the semi high-end suits are fused / semi fused. Among the mid high-end suits I observed yesterday seems only Canali have them fully canvased. However, this is what puzzling me: I also tried some discounted (CAD $130-170), made in China suits at Sears, for the sake of comparison, and found that they have a third layer between the inside lining and the outer garment. Does that mean that they are canvassed?

 

[banksmiranda]

Another way to tell if it the canvas is handsewn rather than fused is to turn over the lapels and look at the back of the lapels. If you see many many small dimples(not sure how else to describe it) on the back over the outline of the lapel which do not extend past the lapel's outline/border then the canvas should be handsewn.

 

[FCS]

Another way to tell if it the canvas is handsewn rather than fused is to turn over the lapels and look at the back of the lapels.  If you see many many small dimples(not sure how else to describe it) on the back over the outline of the lapel which do not extend past the lapel's outline/border then the canvas should be handsewn.

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to check this later since I don't have any hand-basted suit. Does this apply only to the lapel or to the collar as well?

Edit: do you happen to have some sort of visual presentation of these dimples?

 

[FCS]

One more thing, all salespersons who I talked to yesterday told me that there is no functional difference between hand-picked lapel/collar and those constructed by machine, ie. the hand-picked only functions as fashion detail and the machine-made ones would roll as nicely and last as longer. Does this sound true for you guys?

 

[banksmiranda]

Unfortunately I don't have any pics to illustrate the dimples; the stitches are small and, in pictures especially, blend in with the fabric. They are definitely visible, though, if you look carefully at the back of the lapels of an Oxxford, Brioni or Kiton. You could run your hand along the back of the lapel to feel the dimples. The same effect can be seen somewhat on the back of the collar. Most jackets are either made with a handsewn canvas or fused canvas. I suppose that some manufacturers may use machine-sewn as an option somewhere between handsewn and fused. I think that handsewn stitches for canvases are probably just as good or better than machine stitches, considering the application. I do not think that the machine-sewn lapels would roll better or roll longer; in fact, a person could manipulate the fabric better than a machine could. Having said that, things like handsewn lapels and handsewn buttonholes are what contribute to the price and, more importantly, overall quality of a garment. Armani and Versace use fused fronts and have little, if any, fine handwork, but both retail for prices similar to Oxxford, Brioni & Kiton, so in this case price is not necessarily an indication of quality. Here is a picture of what causes the dimples: http://www.savilerowtailor.com/picture4.gif

 

[FCS]

So if I interpreted this correctly, the dimples are tiny stitching marks?

 

[banksmiranda]

That's correct.

 

[matadorpoeta]

One more thing, all salespersons who I talked to yesterday told me that there is no functional difference between hand-picked lapel/collar and those constructed by machine, ie. the hand-picked only functions as fashion detail and the machine-made ones would roll as nicely and last as longer. Does this sound true for you guys?

i have a sewing textbook which is used by fashion/tailoring students. according to this book the pick stitch is a decorative stitch. looking at the diagram, it does not appear to be involved in the actual construction.

i could be wrong though as this book is not specifically about suits.

 

[Alias]

To clarify: hand-pick stitching on the lapels are on the outside edges of the lapels only. The stitches on the underside of the lapels are what make them roll; these are not the "pick stitching."

Some companies prefer to fuse these lapels to the canvas, making the lapel look pressed rather than rolled. Those you should stay away from.

 

[bengal-stripe]

What banksmiranda refers to is called "pad stitching", rows and row of tiny stitches to keep the canvas flat to the underside of the lapel. This is done before the facing gets attached. (The "prick [or pick for the prudes] stitching" around the front edge, is the very last finishing touch to a jacket.)

In a traditional hand tailored jacket, they are all done by hand. Alternatively in a cheap suit this is fused, i.e. glued to the fabric. Most manufacturers of good suits employ a blind stitch machine for this task. Have you seen a machine made blind stitch on the trouser bottoms? There nothing is visible on the outside, but on the inside you have a nylon thread forming loops. That is the same way many manufacturers attach the canvas to the lapel underside. Then the underside looks rather smooth and does not have the little dimples of a truly hand made construction.

The best way to find out about tailoring and construction is to get an old sewing machine and start doing your own alterations. Alternatively once a suit is ready for the garbage, take a pair of scissors and a razor blade and see how it is constructed inside. You will understand it much better if you actually see it.

 

[threadman]

Here is an example of the pad stitches under the lapel. It is from a Savile Row suit on ebay. http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...t/SavRoNy5.JPG

 

[FCS]

Is it possible to have a fully-canvased front but not having the lapel pad-stitched? I saw some canvased suits without the small dimples / stitching marks on the back of the lapel (the latest being Vestimenta), that's why I'm wondering.

Btw, when people mentioned hand-basted lapel, do they refer to the pad-stitching?

 

[Alias]

Is it possible to have a fully-canvased front but not having the lapel pad-stitched? I saw some canvased suits without the small dimples / stitching marks on the back of the lapel (the latest being Vestimenta), that's why I'm wondering.

Btw, when people mentioned hand-basted lapel, do they refer to the pad-stitching?

I wouldn't think so on the first. I'm clueless as to the second. What does hand-basted mean again?

 

[bengal-stripe]

Is it possible to have a fully-canvased front but not having the lapel pad-stitched? I saw some canvased suits without the small dimples / stitching marks on the back of the lapel (the latest being Vestimenta), that's why I'm wondering.

Change that for hand-padstitched. Most modern fully-canvassed suit will have had the lapel padstitching done with a blindstich machine. This will not leave visible dimples on the underside.

"Basting" is a temporary, large stitch (for easy visibility in a contrasting color,) to keep things in place until all the sewing is done. It is pulled out, once it is no longer needed. You can find suits in the shops where the basting of the shoulders is still left in place. For most production methods is no need for the basting at all. It is just added to give the impression of handwork.

 

[FCS]

Thanks for the explanation. So what's the advantage of having the pad-stitching done by hand as opposed to that by machine?

"Basting" is a temporary, large stitch (for easy visibility in a contrasting color,) to keep things in place until all the sewing is done. It is pulled out, once it is no longer needed. You can find suits in the shops where the basting of the shoulders is still left in place. For most production methods is no need for the basting at all. It is just added to give the impression of handwork.

So which part does a hand-basted lapel refers to?