From the logos thread: what do people think about Starbuck's

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by rdawson808

Yeah, I remember getting SBC (Stewart's) when I was in college so that must be right. I think that loss made alot of people go over to Tully's. And for those who know what I'm talking about, that big green T is no replacement for the big red R that used to be there. bob

R.I.P.

 

[globetrotter]

I don't think that starbucks is predetory, or unfair. they just aren't stellar. a few times a year, I will drink at startbucks - more if I am in a country that I don't believe has a good coffee culture.

but what starbucks does to drive out their competition is perfectly fair. if you don't like it, you are free to compete with them, or to give business to their competitors.


I actually am not sure that the various means used to try to help smaller businesses stay afloat is fair - when people demonstrate or picket shops like star bucks, or try to leverage political clout to support small competitors - even though I may sympathize, I am not sure that that is exactly fair.

what starbucks has going for it is critical mass - it has better purchasing strength, better systems, better research, more operating capital. those are the tools that it uses. no real secrets.

 

[tangerine]

Originally Posted by rdawson808

...I'm an economist and I like things very well defined, and I like the emotion left out of the argument. But their practices are not "predatory" according to its definition...

Ah, I see we have a difference in perception, me being a layperson in terms of economics, and you being educated on the subject. The legal definition of predatory is apparently different from the subjective definition.

Originally Posted by rdawson808

...I got myself way too worked-up over this. Sorry. I just can't leave these sorts of discussions alone. It always strikes a nerve. I'll do better.

bob

I got a little too exercised about it myself. I will do better, too.

Sometimes I will go to Tully's just because it is one of the few coffee outlets still found in the same block as a Starbucks, but to tell the truth, I think Starbucks' coffee is better.

 

[tangerine]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

I don't think that starbucks is predetory, or unfair. they just aren't stellar. a few times a year, I will drink at startbucks - more if I am in a country that I don't believe has a good coffee culture.

but what starbucks does to drive out their competition is perfectly fair. if you don't like it, you are free to compete with them, or to give business to their competitors.


I actually am not sure that the various means used to try to help smaller businesses stay afloat is fair - when people demonstrate or picket shops like star bucks, or try to leverage political clout to support small competitors - even though I may sympathize, I am not sure that that is exactly fair.

what starbucks has going for it is critical mass - it has better purchasing strength, better systems, better research, more operating capital. those are the tools that it uses. no real secrets.

globetrotter, I understand your position. My position is that taken outside of the "laboratory" free enterprise environment, what this means is that because they don't have the capital to take advantage of globalization, small family-owned businesses are quickly being driven out of business because they cannot compete with a juggernaut like Starbucks.

You can argue that from a free-enterprise capitalist standpoint, this is all legal and proper, and that businesses that can't compete should in fact go out of business, but I take the position that the cultural loss of diversity will have a depressing effect on the collective psyche, bringing us all closer to 1984/Brave New World/dystopia of your choice.

I have finished my Illy from Caffe Greco and my speech.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by tangerine

globetrotter, I understand your position. My position is that taken outside of the "laboratory" free enterprise environment, what this means is that because they don't have the capital to take advantage of globalization, small family-owned businesses are quickly being driven out of business because they cannot compete with a juggernaut like Starbucks.

You can argue that from a free-enterprise capitalist standpoint, this is all legal and proper, and that businesses that can't compete should in fact go out of business, but I take the position that the cultural loss of diversity will have a depressing effect on the collective psyche, bringing us all closer to 1984/Brave New World/dystopia of your choice.

I have finished my Illy from Caffe Greco and my speech.

I agree with you, and I try to support my local businesses. in fact, today I went to my village hardware store and almost blew $10 on something that would cost $2.50 at Ace. in the end, I broke down and went to Ace. but I try to support the local stores. and I feel badly for the lose of diversity - but it is an inevitable loss.

 

[tangerine]

^ yes, I fear that you are right about the inevitable loss.

 

[j]

Originally Posted by rdawson808

Yeah, I remember getting SBC (Stewart's) when I was in college so that must be right.

I think that loss made alot of people go over to Tully's. And for those who know what I'm talking about, that big green T is no replacement for the big red R that used to be there.

bob
Damn right. And I must be the only one in the world who thinks that roasting coffee smells terrible.

 

[Augusto86]

Originally Posted by j

Damn right. And I must be the only one in the world who thinks that roasting coffee smells terrible.

What is this place? Tully's? Never heard.

Not much of a coffee culture out here on the East Coast, it seems. We get Dunkin' Donuts. *shudders* My horrible classist Sao Paulo roots emerge the instant I enter that place.

 

[j]

Originally Posted by Augusto86

What is this place? Tully's? Never heard.

Not much of a coffee culture out here on the East Coast, it seems. We get Dunkin' Donuts. *shudders* My horrible classist Sao Paulo roots emerge the instant I enter that place.
Tully's is a coffee place around here - I don't know how far it's spread. A few years back they bought the decommissioned Rainier (beer) brewery that is right alongside I-5 south of the stadiums, and put it to work as a roaster. They removed the cool red neon R that was there and replaced it with a stupid green T for Tully's.

"R" I.P.

 

[tangerine]

^ giving rise to a whole new definition of "Green Death"

 

[rdawson808]

Originally Posted by j

Damn right. And I must be the only one in the world who thinks that roasting coffee smells terrible.

You know, I actually forgot about that horrible smell of hops. But I grew up in Olympia so always smelled it at the Oly brewery too.

bob

 

[montecristo#4]

Originally Posted by tangerine

Microsoft "just competes" with other operating systems, but they have managed to eliminate many of their other competitors from the market. Some people have argued successfully that they manipulated the marketplace illegally. I'm not saying Starbucks does this, I'm just saying that the "just competes" argument is frail.

Here's an anecdote. I live in North Beach, San Francisco's Little Italy. We have a number of Italian family-owned and operated cafes. Starbucks has repeatedly tried to move into the neighborhood and been repelled by our activism. North Beach is a popular tourist area. Last year I saw a family walking up the main drag. From a block away I could see they were from somewhere in the American midwest. As I was passing them, they were peering into the different cafes, and one woman said, "where is there a Starbucks around here?"

The point is that as one brand gains domination of the marketplace, other brands are unable to fairly compete because there is a "critical mass" of trust and acceptance that takes place. I am sure that anyone with an MBA could explain this much better than I am.

In other neighborhoods, where there used to be other local coffeeshops and smaller local chains, Starbucks has completely taken over using the mechanism previously described by SGladwell. Most neighborhoods only feature Starbucks now.

Hmm... Microbucks. Starsoft. The new corporate behemoth out of Seattle. j, Fok, I think you've found your new sponsor.


The analogy here is McDonalds. A Big Mac is a Big Mac and it tasted reliably the same all over the world. Starbucks is the same way. If I know I've optimized my coffee order for a grande half caf with whipped mocha, I know I am going to get the exact same tasting beverage at any Starbucks. The lesson here is that people like consistency in their coffee.

 

[Roy]

I dislike the coffee that Starbucks has. Never ever got a good cup of coffee. It's impressive what they have achieved though.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by montecristo#4

The analogy here is McDonalds. A Big Mac is a Big Mac and it tasted reliably the same all over the world. Starbucks is the same way. If I know I've optimized my coffee order for a grande half caf with whipped mocha, I know I am going to get the exact same tasting beverage at any Starbucks. The lesson here is that people like consistency in their coffee.


I think that most people like consistancy in everything. that is how come chains do so well. if you are part of the small group that would prefer less consistancy, you are screwed.

 

[Get Smart]

Starbuck's isnt *that* bad but all of my overpriced designer coffee purchases go to COFFEE BEAN & TEA LEAF who has a vastly superior product than Starbucks or anywhere else.