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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by poorsod, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. SeamasterLux

    SeamasterLux Senior member

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    I think I can speak for both Dirnelli and I. Camps is indeed ahead of Cifonelli, both in terms of experience with the tailor (refer to RJman post on ASW to understand why Marc de Luca is so special) and of comfort while having a perfect cut.
    Even with the higher price tag, it's a no brainer for me. If I had the means, I would only go to Camps de Luca. It's the ultimate experience and I have tried two dozens of places.
     
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  2. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    ^could you elaborate a bit more please. From what I can see Camps appears to have a bt more air than Cifo, but still fitted. Is this fair to say? Also the lines are longer.

    I think the Camps price (incl. VAT) is a bit higher now I'm afraid..

    Re: Suzuki he trained at Camps IIRC and was a cutter at Smalto.
     
  3. JL724

    JL724 Senior member

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    Any idea on pricing for both for a 2-piece suit?

    Thanks.
     
  4. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    iirc now cifo is 5500 and camps is 6500 (both incl. vat).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  5. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Thanks
     
  6. fassbinder

    fassbinder Senior member

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    Agreed, best value in Paris. He is very capable of cutting a very elegant suit, for a price that rivals some mtm programs . not the level of detail on par with camps, but then again almost no one is. I believe he was trained at Camps and by his father. He is very flexible, but I would not stray too far from his usual cut. Do not expect to get an unpadded/neopolitain shoulders or an english chest. But if you want honest/authetic Parisian bespoke at an affordable price he is a great choice.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  7. Grenadier

    Grenadier Senior member

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    It may be a bit off-topic, but does anyone have any recommendations for French ready-to-wear tailored clothing, shirts, or ties aside from Charvet?
     
  8. SeamasterLux

    SeamasterLux Senior member

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    A bit off topic indeed but here you go:
    Hartwood: probably the best rtw product in Paris. Superb fit and attention to details. Prices are high but still twice cheaper than Kiton or Brio I.
    Smalto offers rtw, especially interesting at their biannual sales (-50%).
    Arthur&Fox: quite good quality for suits, shirts and ties. prices are decent.
    There are a lot of brands but these would be my top 3. Check Dirnelli's tumbr. He has a bit of everything and always mentions where it comes from.
     
  9. ThinkDerm

    ThinkDerm Senior member

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    dirnelli, tell us more about:

    Albert Arts

    Ripense
     
  10. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    I would also be curious to learn more of Stark + Sons and Guilson, two tailors that have been recommended to me by Parisians in the past.
     
  11. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  12. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Hermes

    "Armholes, collar and buttonholes are hand done- the hand stitching around the armholes is so fine as to be invisible from the right side. When I asked if this was perhaps too delicate to be machine-washed I earned a look of utter disgust, the likes of which only the French are capable. Hand wash only, s'il-vous-plait."

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    En passant, si nous avons des visiteurs qui ne sont pas confortables en anglais, il y a plusieurs entre nous qui sont prêts à faire un peu de traduction. Laissez faire Google translate, c'est de la merde.
     
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  14. dirnelli

    dirnelli Senior member

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    I'll try to answer a couple of questions all at once:

    1) I would not say that between Camps de Luca and Cifonelli the one is superior to the other. At this level of game, it's a matter of personal taste because both are pretty much the best bespoke tailors in France. As someone who buys alot of second hand suits on eBay or in thrift stores, as you'll notice from my Tumblr, I was drawn to Camps de Luca for a bespoke commission because they are no CdL suits available on the second-hand market, and there is no RTW offering to get acquiainted with the style.

    2) Re Guilson, yes, he's a well-respected master tailor, but I find that he, Djay, Charvet bespoke, and Max Evzeline all make suits that, while true to the canon of the French cut, appear all too 'stiff' or stodgy to me. There is something definitely graceful and italian about the way Camps de Luca, Cifonelli and Marc di Fiore cust and construct a suit. I don't know how to explain it, as it's the kind of thing you have to see and touch to get what I'm referring to. There are some exceptions to what I'm saying: Urban, Gonzales and Rousseau (the last two have been folded into Cifonelli), which have a characteristically French cut, and a more 'armoured' construction, but exude top class nevertheless.

    3) I totally agree with the comment about not asking Marc di Fiore to make a suit different than what he's been used to cutting for decades. This rule also holds true for any bespoke tailor you want to try in Paris, or anywhere else in the world: I've only ever seen bad things come from trying to get a bespoke tailor to make something he's not used to making. I've written about it before, I call it the 'Myth of Bespoke Tailoring', i.e. the false notion that you're successfully going to get your bespoke tailor to design and make a suit like some other tailor's. All the tailors I've spoken to have stories about clients requesting a different style than the house cut, and it usually ends in tears... Surprising, right ? You kind of expect your bespoke tailor to be just that, bespoke... In reality, it never pays to stray too far from the house style. I've tried it at my own expense, and it's always a mistake. Now, I just stick with the house cut. If I don't like the house cut, I go to a different tailor, it's a much safer approach. And also, NEVER beleive a tailor who tries to spin you a tale about how he can create anything you imagine, it's a lie.

    4) Ripense is a Roman bespoke tailor. Great value for money, but perhaps a bit off topic for a thread about French bespoke tailoring.

    5) Albert Arts is a RTW brand created by Albert Goldberg, founder of Faconnable and one-time owner of Old England. To my knowledge, Albert Arts was only ever distributed at Old England and at the Albert Arts flagship store in Nice. The entire line in made in Italy, to a high standard, sometimes even by Sartoria Partenopea, so there could even be some discussion about whether to consider Albert Arts an example of French RTW tailoring. The store in Nice is very big and quite nice, worth a visit when on the Riviera. However, the prices are stiff for RTW. I picked up my whole Albert Arts wardrobe at -70% off RRP at the closing sale of Old England and subsequent clearance sales in Paris. Theres is alot of deadstock out there, worth keeping an eye out on eBay if it shows up at some point.

    6) Hartwood is also a great French RTW brand, launched by one of the co-founders of Arthur&Fox, but with a higher standard of manufacturing, since Hartwood is all Caruso-made. Again, same issue about whether to consider any of these brands French, since both Hartwood and Arthur&Fox are made in Italy (Arthur & Fox manufactures in part at Boglioli.) The list goes on and on: Cifonelli RTW is Caruso, Zilli RTW is Pal Zileri, Smalto RTW is Caruso, Arnys RTW is Caruso, Basile RTW is Mabro (Tuscany).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  15. dirnelli

    dirnelli Senior member

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    PS. Kuro, you can skip John Baillie, trust me.
     
  16. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    ^ Thanks. It's great to learn more about Parisian tailoring.
     
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  17. dirnelli

    dirnelli Senior member

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    I forgot to answer re shirts.

    The top bespoke shirts in Paris are made by Courtot and by Lucca. Slight preference for Lucca who is even more detail-obsessed IMHO. Prices start at 220-250 euros.
     
  18. JL724

    JL724 Senior member

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    Do Camps or Cifonelli travel to NY? I can't find anything on their website.
     
  19. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    will try to dig mine out (frayed collar and all)



    thought as much. cheers.



    Do you have any info on Halary?


    Camps no (from my inquiries), Cifonelli yes (soon in fact).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  20. dirnelli

    dirnelli Senior member

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    Re Halary, SeamasterLux can share his experience -- I seem to recall he was underwhelmed, if not downright disappointed.

    BTW -- The Monsieur magazine May/July issue has a report on Paris tailors, shirtmakers and bootmakers. It's a good place to start, if you want to get acquainted with names & prices. I wouldn't give their short-list too much credit however, given that Lucca, Charvet and Di Fiore aren't even mentioned.

    One noteworthy MTM tailor not mentioned by Monsieur is Jean-Manuel Moreau (formerly known as Tailormail) which sells La Vera Sartoria Napoletana MTM cheaper than anywhere else I've ever heard of worldwide.
     

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