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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by poorsod, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    agjiffy, glad that you enjoyed working with Cifonelli.

    To balance out your review I'll add that if they make a mistake, they'll definitely try to correct the mistake (but perhaps with varying degrees of success).

    The shoulder line of your jackets are different from mine, but that is probably because of the differences in our morphology.

    IIRC VAT refund was 15% (same as Charvet).
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013


  2. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    ^ thanks kuro. What was the mistake on your garment and what went wrong with the fix? What does your shoulder line look like?
     


  3. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    The shoulders on one of my jackets were kind of wonky. They made some alterations and it is improved, but at the end of the day the jacket before that was just better. Shit happens and I think it probably just needs a bit of padding (but I'm too lazy to be bothered).

    I was only referring to the angle of your trapezius muscle which differs from mine (at least from what I can tell from the photos, the second in particular).
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013


  4. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    That is unfortunate, Kuro. It always stings when they don't come out as you expected. I expect that with a true craft like tailoring, you have some reasonable occurrence of errors. Those tailors that handle it the right way are the ones that win my business long term.
     


  5. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    Yup. I chalk it up to human error, but he definitely handled it like a professional and tried to correct. It is still a nice jacket (and the pants for that suit are quite nice). Enjoy!
     


  6. SeamasterLux

    SeamasterLux Senior member

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    Are you serious?

    Have you ever laid eyes on a Cifonelli or Camps de Luca suit? Have you ever seen the level of handwork involved?
    Let me tell you, Tom Ford, Brioni and Kiton are nowhere near that level. The RTW prices of these brands are a pure joke.
     


  7. OxxfordSJLINY

    OxxfordSJLINY Senior member

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    I originally typed superior when I meant to type inferior. I was in somewhat of a rush as I had other things to do that were very important. It was an honest mistake. I'm only human.

    FWIW, I just edited my post that you quoted and replaced the word superior with the word inferior. You should edit my quote so that it has the word inferior instead of the word superior. I sincerely apologize for that type-o.

    BTW, I agree with you completely. That is what I said before. I just used the wrong word by mistake. It is sometimes easy to confuse the words inferior and superior when you are in a rush because you have other things to do that are important. Please re-read my edited post that you quoted and edit your post so that the word inferior (as in all overpriced RTW brands-and far from just Brioni, Tom Ford and Kiton are far inferior to all bespoke worldwide in every conceivable way, sometimes excluding, most of the time, including quality and/or quantity of handwork) is in place of the word superior in your quote of my post? Thank you dearly! :)

    I will say though, that the overpriced RTW brands are superior only in quality and or/quality of handwork than 1/4 of bespoke tailors worldwide (specifically, some-less than 1/2 of-tailors that are American, English and in (insert 3rd world country here). However, all bespoke tailors that are Continental European (obviously including Cifonelli and Camps DeLuca, among the worlds best) and Japanese and most bespoke tailors that are American, English and in (again, insert 3rd world country here) are better than all overpriced RTW brands in every conceivable way (including quality and quantity of handwork).
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013


  8. SeamasterLux

    SeamasterLux Senior member

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    Pfew, that's a relief. We were already discussing with a friend of mine to understand how you could think that (like having had a bad experience in bespoke).

    Anyway, glad we're on the same page and definitely, I'll never pay full retail price for the RTW brands mentioned, it's just plain ridiculous. When I see Tom Ford shirts at 399 GBP at Harrod's, I can't help but laugh. That's what it cost to have a bespoke at Charvet or 2 in Napoli.
     


  9. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    If it's handwork that you are looking for, you will find more on Kiton ready to wear than Charvet bespoke.
     


  10. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    Speaking of Charvet, some photos from their tailoring department at the links below.

    IIRC, Réginald-Jérôme gave their tailor a thumbs up.

    I always liked the cut of the velvet jacket that they sometimes have in the window...

    http://static.billionaire.com/bf92130974b9c847c8d50c726ffb02d7.jpg

    http://static.billionaire.com/172170ce072394140a6aed3631441718.jpg

    http://static.billionaire.com/46b1d99ffda25c9fbea5b12fbff16de7.jpg

    http://static.billionaire.com/285fc13b01a1e63c2d7fbf779becd45b.jpg

    http://static.billionaire.com/c76c819a7d5019ce3ededda87b23f189.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013


  11. dirnelli

    dirnelli Senior member

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    I love this debate about handmade luxury RTW vs. bespoke. I could carry on for hours about this topic.

    I will however summarize my conclusion, for the sake of saving space: there is no universal truth, at the end of the day.

    It comes down to an argument about whether certain steps in the process have more value if done by hand versus the same steps done by machine? Well, as it turns out, the answer entirely depends who is doing the handiwork. Some humans aren't as good as the machines, while others are superior to machines, so it really has to be looked at case by case. And it can vary widely within a single brand, making matters even more confusing. So yes, sometimes RTW beats bespoke, as much as we hate to admit it. One area where this is obvious is in high end fabrics, where the purchasing clout of a luxury RTW brand sometimes places the final product at a price where the bespoke equivalent would cost much more because of the value of the raw materials when purchased in a single length by the tailor.

    My solution is to have both high end RTW (never paid at RRP) and bespoke, which gives one a balanced appreciation of the pros and cons of each.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013


  12. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    ^ great stuff! Kuro. Last time I had shirts made at Charvet I flirted with having a jacket made. They told me that they are stylistically agnostic and will do whatever cut you want much like the shirts. I found that a little daunting, but the pieces look great.
     


  13. OxxfordSJLINY

    OxxfordSJLINY Senior member

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    Sometimes, in this case is only 1/4 of the time. And only when it comes to quality and/or quantity of handwork and (to those it matters to) lower costs of high end fabrics. The other 3/4 it is bespoke that, in every conceivable way, is far better, hands down. That is especially true of quality and/or quantity of handwork and (to those it matters to) far greater choice of fabrics. Most of all (to those it matters to), a far greater choice of fabrics that are practical due to being incredibly durable and just as incredibly long lasting (13+ ounces for non-nappy fabrics and 16+ ounces for nappy fabrics), all with an under super 100s thread count.

    As for high end fabrics like Vicuna, fabrics with a thread count above super 120s and, to a lesser extent, super 100s to super 120s, I personally think that those fabrics are by far the most overrated things out there because of their high to exuberant costs and incredible lack of to minimal durability. Vicuna is by far the worst offender in these regards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013


  14. CrimsonSox

    CrimsonSox Senior member

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    The stylistic flexibility of Charvet is intriguing. In one of the photos Kuro helpfully posted one jacket has a cran necker and natural sleevehead, while the other has a straight cut lapel and a spalla camicia.

    While I would be the first to defend and prefer more traditional fabrics, Chris Despos once wrote an interesting post on how some of the supers that he uses are durable, hold a crease, and respond well to alterations: http://www.styleforum.net/t/56404/unfunded-liabilities-a-k-a-the-cloth-thread/7200#post_6583091

    Quote: See also Chris' post on tailoring different fabrics: http://www.styleforum.net/t/207054/my-visit-to-napoli-mina-napoli-su-misura/2280#post_6050639
    JefferyD had a bit of sartorial mythbusting on this point: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.ca/2011/02/sartorial-mythbusting.html

    Quote: If I recall correctly, Dirnelli selected a super 180 for his elegant Camps de Luca suit. How does the fabric wear and feel?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013


  15. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    Same. Also, I found it interesting that their fabric selection didn't seem to include any of the forum favorites. I only saw Drapers, Holland & Sherry, and Scabal.
     


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