Formula 1 - F1 - Current Season Discussion

[radio3]

Raikkonen won races in the MP4-20 but the car didn't have the reliability for a WDC. One DNF counteracts a lot of wins in points. The Renaults of that era were in a different league in traction and horsepower among the cars that could actually finish races.

Raikkonen had almost twice as many points as Montoya, the same story as with all his teammates prior to Ferrari (though again at Lotus too).

Sorry but Raikkonen was phenomenal in 2007 and in a car that Alonso actually himself has stated was inferior to the McL. In the longest career of any driver currently in F1 Raikkonen really only had 2 years that people find significant criticism for. With both of them the issue was the same -- car that severely understeered. There aren't any other drivers with fewer off-seasons than that.

Anyway, we can agree that neither he, nor any of the other top drivers from that era, were ever on the same level as Schumacher. Going forward we're looking at Schumacher, Vettel, and Verstappen as the greats of the early part of the millenium.

 

[idfnl]

Raikkonen won races in the MP4-20 but the car didn't have the reliability for a WDC. One DNF counteracts a lot of wins in points. The Renaults of that era were in a different league in traction and horsepower among the cars that could actually finish races.

Raikkonen had almost twice as many points as Montoya, the same story as with all his teammates prior to Ferrari (though again at Lotus too).

Sorry but Raikkonen was phenomenal in 2007 and in a car that Alonso actually himself has stated was inferior to the McL. In the longest career of any driver currently in F1 Raikkonen really only had 2 years that people find significant criticism for. With both of them the issue was the same -- car that severely understeered. There aren't any other drivers with fewer off-seasons than that.

Anyway, we can agree that neither he, nor any of the other top drivers from that era, were ever on the same level as Schumacher. Going forward we're looking at Schumacher, Vettel, and Verstappen as the greats of the early part of the millenium.

I think there are more than 2 years warranting criticism. There was the ice cream bar season too. He's over the hill, today is just a perpetual 4th place guy in the best car.

 

[Dragon]

Maybe Kimi is very quick when the car is just right for him, but it seems that is very rare and most of the time he is complaining about something. To be in the top tier, you have to be able to battle for race wins even with a car that's not to your liking. If you're a top tier driver and the car is perfect, the race weekend is usually a breeze.

Known Top Tier: Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso
2nd Tier: Bottas, Verstappen, (maybe Grojean)
3rd Tier: Raikonnen, Hulkenberg, Perez, Kvat, Sainz, Massa
The rest: unknown

Off-topic: I am probably late to the game, just discovered F1 Sidecar Racing recently. These guys are crazy!

 

[Joffrey]

IF you're ranking drivers you don't rank them at their prime - I don't care how fast Raikkonen was 7-10 years ago. How fast is he now? Apart from his time at Lotus Raikkonen hasn't really been on it since 2007 (where he profited from McLaren's implosion). I think Ferrari should hire Perez. I don't think he's quite fast enough but should be able to push Vettel more than Raikkonen.

Today:
Tier 1 (proven winners and can make the difference) - alonso, hamilton, vettel, ricciardo
Tier 2 (winners, but not quite proven yet. can linger here or be promoted): Verstappen, Bottas
Tier 3 (need more time): Perez, Ocon, Sainz, Wehrlein, etc.

Button contract debacle - was from 2004 I think when he had a contract with Williams then tried to break it to go to BAR. Williams wouldn't budge so it went to Contract Recognition Board and I think BAR ended up buying it out - apparantly Jenson paid them back out of his salary. More about it is available with a quick web search

 

[radio3]

IF you're ranking drivers you don't rank them at their prime - I don't care how fast Raikkonen was 7-10 years ago. How fast is he now? Apart from his time at Lotus Raikkonen hasn't really been on it since 2007 (where he profited from McLaren's implosion). I think Ferrari should hire Perez. I don't think he's quite fast enough but should be able to push Vettel more than Raikkonen.

Today:
Tier 1 (proven winners and can make the difference) - alonso, hamilton, vettel, ricciardo
Tier 2 (winners, but not quite proven yet. can linger here or be promoted): Verstappen, Bottas
Tier 3 (need more time): Perez, Ocon, Sainz, Wehrlein, etc.

Button contract debacle - was from 2004 I think when he had a contract with Williams then tried to break it to go to BAR. Williams wouldn't budge so it went to Contract Recognition Board and I think BAR ended up buying it out - apparantly Jenson paid them back out of his salary. More about it is available with a quick web search

Alonso hasn't been a winner in over ten years and Hamilton is getting beaten by a teammate who everyone previously thought was average. That's the 3rd teammate in a row that's happened to Hamilton with. A lot of British fans on the internet like to talk up Hamilton and therefore Alonso since they were tied up at McL. But neither has actually ever been the best.

At the moment, it's clear that Vettel and Verstappen are ahead of everyone else, with Verstappen very likely to go down as an all-time great.

The rest will largely be forgotten.

 

[idfnl]

Alonso hasn't been a winner in over ten years and Hamilton is getting beaten by a teammate who everyone previously thought was average. That's the 3rd teammate in a row that's happened to Hamilton with. A lot of British fans on the internet like to talk up Hamilton and therefore Alonso since they were tied up at McL. But neither has actually ever been the best.

At the moment, it's clear that Vettel and Verstappen are ahead of everyone else, with Verstappen very likely to go down as an all-time great.

The rest will largely be forgotten.

And here I thought I had strong views.

Look at my post history, I am not exactly a Hamilton fan, but while it's closer than I thought, he's clearly quicker than Bottas.

On the whole he was quicker than Rosberg, even though the gap narrowed last season.

In F1, data sharing makes it so a sub par #2 looks closer than he really is.

 

[radio3]

Hamilton's a great driver, but a lot of people here are listing him as top tier and I'm just providing a counterbalancing point of view. Across 3 years Button scored more points than Hamilton. Rosberg also routinely matched him and of course took the WDC off him last season. Bottas is doing even better against him and indeed would be ahead in points if not for a dnf. Not only did the dnf cost him points that already immediately make up the difference, but furthermore it precipated his slotting into a second driver role where he gets the inferior tire strategy an pit stops optimized to impede other team. That's getting matched or beaten by every teammate in his career except Kovalainen.

Anyway, if Mercedes can exact a further car advantage over Ferrari then Hamilton could still win the WDC. If he does, then I believe he will retire rather than continuing and having to face Bottas again next season. Mercedes will happily take Vettel and then we'll see Verstappen at Ferrari 2018. The two best drivers in F1 in the two best teams. In a way, therefore, I hope Hamilton is able to win this season

 

[sugarbutch]

The number of points Button scored is a silly yardstick. If the car is capable of more points in the year he's on top, it distorts the record. He beat Hamilton one year, a year that Hamilton clearly didn't have his head together. If you want to say that itself is a mark against him, fine, but Jenson did not have the measure of him in the final tally.

The entirety of your assessment hinges on the notion that Alonso is an overrated hack. This view is idiosyncratic at best.

Rosberg certainly made Hamilton work for it, but his championship is purely down to mechanical failure for Hamilton. The previous two years were also close only because Hamilton had worse luck than Nico.

You've still not made a case for Vettel at the top as you seem to have him. What's your rationale?

 

[Texasmade]

You've still not made a case for Vettel at the top as you seem to have him. What's your rationale?

Or Max being a top driver. He's won 1 race and had some good showings with exciting overtakes in a few other races but he can't do street circuits.

 

[radio3]

The number of points Button scored is a silly yardstick. If the car is capable of more points in the year he's on top, it distorts the record. He beat Hamilton one year, a year that Hamilton clearly didn't have his head together. If you want to say that itself is a mark against him, fine, but Jenson did not have the measure of him in the final tally.

The entirety of your assessment hinges on the notion that Alonso is an overrated hack. This view is idiosyncratic at best.

Rosberg certainly made Hamilton work for it, but his championship is purely down to mechanical failure for Hamilton. The previous two years were also close only because Hamilton had worse luck than Nico.

You've still not made a case for Vettel at the top as you seem to have him. What's your rationale?

How can the facts of a driver's success relative to his teammates "hinge on the notion that Alonso is an overrated hack"?

Rosberg's WDC most certainly was not "purely down to mechanical failure for Hamilton". Rosberg was faster all season as evidenced by both his better points standing and by his superior qualifying results. For you to make that claim would require an assumption that Rosberg was doing everything he could to score as many points as possible in the closing races of the season. But of course he was not -- he only had to drive conservatively, as one does when they've already bagged the championship as long as they can avoid any mishaps.

 

[radio3]

My rationale for Vettel at the top is that he has driven the most impressive races of anyone this season.

But he is the most successful driver in F1. So the onus isn't on me to provide a rationale anyway. If you think someone else is better then you are the one who needs to present a case for why.

 

[radio3]

Or Max being a top driver. He's won 1 race and had some good showings with exciting overtakes in a few other races but he can't do street circuits.

Verstappen is the biggest talent I've seen since Schumacher and Raikkonen. It's obvious in everything he does. Just watch him drive. As long as he is ambitious and does a good job of getting into the best car, which it looks like he is, he'll win something like 7 or 8 championships.

 

[sugarbutch]

You asserted that Alonso's championships were due to car advantage. Debunked. Yet Vettel's championships came in the *actual* best car in 2011, 2012, and 2013 with a defeated, de facto #2 teammate. In 2010, when Webber still thought he was equal #1 and took four wins, Vettel barely won the championship, even then mostly because of Ferrari's bone-headed pit strategy. I still put Vettel in the top tier, but to act as though his success is not as car-dependent as anyone else in that tier is laughable.

Why are his victories this year any more impressive than Hamilton's or Bottas's? Already this season he's benefitted twice from Hamilton mechanical issues. And in the car that has so far shown itself to have a slight edge. Oh, and let's not forget the strategy call that gave him the edge over Raikkonen in Monaco. He grabbed the chance with both hands, but the opportunity was created by his team, not his driving.

Everyone (except you, apparently) acknowledges the devastating effect of unreliability on Hamilton's points total in 2016:

• ERS failure at the start of qualifying in China, relegating him to 22nd on the grid. He finished seventh.
• ERS failure during Q3 in Russia, restricting the Mercedes driver to 10th on the grid. He finished second.
• Engine mode issue during the European GP. He finished fifth having started in 10th following a crash in qualifying.
• Hydraulics fault during Practice Two in Singapore which was cited as a critical factor in his defeat to Rosberg. He finished third.
• Engine failure in Malaysia which cost him an almost-certain victory.

 

[Joffrey]

Lol F1 fanboys never disappoint regardless of platform.

 

[Texasmade]

Verstappen is the biggest talent I've seen since Schumacher and Raikkonen. It's obvious in everything he does. Just watch him drive. As long as he is ambitious and does a good job of getting into the best car, which it looks like he is, he'll win something like 7 or 8 championships.

Except drive street circuits. He hasn't exactly impressed there.