For the love of d'Avenza

[sartoriale]

I hate to be the pessimist here, and I love Jonathan Clay, but I think any attempt to re-launch (or to continue) d'Avenza is a fool's errand. William White, the head of Scarpe di Bianco, spent a lot of his time and money trying to introduce d'Avenza to the American market (while it was still being hand-made) back in the mid-2000s. He failed. D'Avenza is one of those brands that is (or was) the best in the world, but it had NO IDEA how to market itself. D'Avenza did succeed as a third-party maker (for House of Bijan, Gieves & Hawkes, and Hadleighs of Dallas), but it never (in over 50 years) made a name for itself. Kiton and Attolini have done swimmingly, but not d'Avenza. The closest analogy I can make is Oxxford. No one really knows about Oxxford - BUT - Oxxford has managed to adapt and survive. If d'Avenza couldn't really penetrate North America, the far East or Russia when it was at its best and most skilled (the best tailors and cutters in the world), then how can it make it today? The final nail in the coffin was when BrandAmour tried to resurrect d'Avenza. It had NO skilled craftsmen. The garments literally fell apart. The damage is done. Everyone still thinks that Brunello Cucinelli owns d'Avenza - and has that helped the company even one bit? No. It's helped Ebay resellers of dead-stock, but that's about it. If Marlon Brando's camel topcoat (by d'Avenza) from Last Tango in Paris didn't help the company at all, then what will? I would just say to all - enjoy the good stuff while you can: the deadstock, OG d'Avenza. You can buy those suits and jackets for as little as $300 - and there's plenty left out there. Why would we be excited about a new opportunity to get an above-average product for $2500 - $3500 when you can get a superior product for $300 - $700? I just don't get it. Yes, some of the dead-stock d'Avenza is a bit dated - with pleated pants (which are coming back I suppose), or longer jackets, or slightly wider lapels - but Tom Ford favors wider lapels, and Attolini doesn't shy away from a 30" jacket, so, again, not sure what the problem is. If I didn't already have a fully stocked wardrobe, I would be buying up the dead-stock d'Avenza - cut by Ralph A (the master cutter to end all master cutters). I would be buying - all day long - old school d'Avenza from topshelfapparel, nyMilan, Sartoriale, and ilcravattaiomatto (among others).

I think about Yoox - and how people pay $800 + to get a half-way-dec sport coat or blazer, and I just don't get it.

You're not getting a fully handmade, RTW garment on Yoox for $800. Why wouldn't more people just buy up these great d'Avenza pieces? I used to wear Brioni, but the fit just wasn't right for me. D'Avenza will fit anyone. You may need your tailor to slim the pants and the sleeves, but so what? You're getting bespoke-level stuff here. It's crazy...

So - it's great (in theory) that Clay has bought the trademarks and wants to keep d'Avenza alive (I owned the davenza.com domain for a while, which I sold to BrandAmour) - but I think that Clay is the only one.

I don't see d'Avenza succeeding in North America or Italy given the multiple bankruptcies associated with the brand (including 2019). It's scorched Earth. What retailers are willing to be burned, yet again, by d'Avenza? Where is the good-will and brand equity? I would submit that it doesn't have any left to offer the world of retailers and consumers.

What does the brand even mean to people - outside of Russia, for instance?

I know that Russian oligarchs love d'Avenza for the Italian heritage (which is doesn't have anymore), and for the vicuna offerings from the brand (this last-go-around). But where does a brand like d'Avenza (never a household name, never known outside of Italy or Russia) go from here? And why? If at first you don't succeed, try, like, another twenty times?

And this is coming from the guy who started this thread some time ago...

Probably you are right, but if they are able to scale the operation for the demand and start a strong MTO operation, the name will certainly help, IMO.

Most of what you wrote applies to Sartoria Castangia, as well; another historical brand. Stellar workmanship, great fabrics and cut. Many private label work for others, but never a big name recognition.

 

[thegreatgatsby]

@thegreatgatsby this is such a wonderful post and filled with so much truth. I will begin by stating a very matter of factly that I am an absolute newcomer to this world. I mean very frankly, I barely know anything about the names you are mentioning and only very recently got my hands on an OG D'Avenza piece and picked it apart with one of the most experienced head cutters on Savile Row so that we ourselves understand what we are trying to deliver a little more.

We have been fortunate enough over the past 5 years as I have gone through this journey of trying to establish a brand that re-thinks how consumers can access the very best of products, quality, and craftsmanship to have met and gained the support of many let's call them advising angels, not in the investment sense but there to ensure we really are making good on our promise on value. Some of which had the exact same problem you describe d'Avenza having and see our little concept as a way of changing the commercial approach brands have to take. The way we see it, one misstep, one bad product category and we risk killing the dream of Archibald and potentially throw our entire idea into jeopardy.

So here is what I know, it costs about 650 Euros for a masterfully tailored, totally handmade Italian suit not including the cloth. If you want to go for a partly machine-made piece in Italy a la Brioni etc, you are looking at 400 Euros but the difference is obvious once that goes on. By the time you go for something beautiful from Scabal, Loro Piana etc.. let's price it up.

A Loro Piana Cashmere with the textile cashmere coming in at between 100 - 130 Euros/m and you typically need 3m for a complete suit. So that is let's say 350 Euros for 3m. So all in, you are looking at ~1000 Euros production for a cashmere suit totally handmade in Italy by master tailors. Now by the time you consider packaging, freight etc... let's say 1125 Euros.
If we assume duty rates to the USA at about 16% (60.3 cents/kg + 15.6%) we come off landed at 1305 Euros...around 1475 USD... Push this through our pricing mechanism and we can achieve something in the region of 2400 USD for a Cashmere, hand-made suit (MTO, RTW or HM2M). Go with wool and it's even less, duties included. The best comparison, we found something from Cucinelli for about $6500 USD.

So if you are talking about a suit made of great wool, we can achieve something in the region of 1850 USD.

Now we haven't decided how we are going to introduce the category, how we are going to market it etc..but our game is far far different to any conventional retailer. The plan was to do this for our own suiting line, but who are we... and that would perhaps yield similar results but JC has spent many years it seems re-establishing a work-flow with craftsmen to create fine suits much in the same way his father, Tony, did when the brand was started.

d'Avenza has an incredible story of rise and fall associated to it - the original luxury Italian suit... when confronted with the chance of reviving this story and powering the commercial side through our business model it felt like a no-brainer. And the strategy is quite simple... we begin by getting those who really know on our side. So that is you and this incredible community, that is why the launch will include a special just for all of you...Each product tested by a team we employ on Savile Row prior to delivery, we slowly let the world know that the true d'avenza is back and only available by this odd little online outfit that is completely changing the game when it comes to the finest Italian suits... and every suit we sell will do the talking for us.

The difference I guess is we don't have to play the marketing and commercial game like everyone else did back in the day.
It was indeed incredibly difficult but that isn't our approach. There are no retailers involved here and the game is to tell the story and deliver something different. We want to deliver great product at great prices and ensure with every single one we are upholding our promise of incredible value. Every single piece delivered will serve as a love letter to Tony Clay's original d'Avenza and a signal that we are effectively laying down the gauntlet in a new category.

I guess that is what excites me about this stuff... normally it's just us some random brand partnering up with a master craftsmen to offer high luxury at an incredible value... but now we have a real story, a rise and fall story that means we can go to those who really know and get our validation, rubber stamp and then further tell this once-forgotten story with a new angle. Those master tailors in Italy that used to make those great suits... they are back, and they just went digital.


.

I wish you every success. I really hope that you and Clay make it work. It will be a tough road, but it sounds like - together - you have the skill-sets (Clay on the manufacturing end, and you on the e-commerce side) to make it happen.

Personally, I would find it difficult (from the consumer side), to spend more than $600 for any suit, given the re-sale, dead-stock market is alive and well, and I have done very well buying suits on the secondary market.

I just can't justify spending more than $1K for any garment (especially when so much good stock exists for far less).

Now, when that old stock dries up, I'll have to look elsewhere - or find the next under-the-radar brand that has gone bankrupt. Given the economic headaches of Italy - and the avalanche of clothing being produced in Italy and never sold (Yoox is full of clothes that simply cannot find buyers in Italy) - I don't think I'll ever have to pay full price for any garment.

That may be a sad reality of the clothing business, but Yoox is a testament to how bad things are in Italy right now (and have been for a while). It's a country that is producing so much, but seems to sell so little. That gap in the market is our windfall. It also makes creating a "new" brand all-the-harder to market and sell (especially at that price point).

Regardless - I hope you and Clay make it.

 

[thegreatgatsby]

Probably you are right, but if they are able to scale the operation for the demand and start a strong MTO operation, the name will certainly help, IMO.

Most of what you wrote applies to Sartoria Castangia, as well; another historical brand. Stellar workmanship, great fabrics and cut. Many private label work for others, but never a big name recognition.

You're spot on about SC. Italy just makes way too much product - and it doesn't have enough wealthy people to buy all the stuff it makes. Wages are too low. There's far less disposable income than in the United States, and that shows up on the secondary market, and on Yoox (among other places).

 

[ArchibaldRoh]

I wish you every success. I really hope that you and Clay make it work. It will be a tough road, but it sounds like - together - you have the skill-sets (Clay on the manufacturing end, and you on the e-commerce side) to make it happen.

Personally, I would find it difficult (from the consumer side), to spend more than $600 for any suit, given the re-sale, dead-stock market is alive and well, and I have done very well buying suits on the secondary market.

I just can't justify spending more than $1K for any garment (especially when so much good stock exists for far less).

Now, when that old stock dries up, I'll have to look elsewhere - or find the next under-the-radar brand that has gone bankrupt. Given the economic headaches of Italy - and the avalanche of clothing being produced in Italy and never sold (Yoox is full of clothes that simply cannot find buyers in Italy) - I don't think I'll ever have to pay full price for any garment.

That may be a sad reality of the clothing business, but Yoox is a testament to how bad things are in Italy right now (and have been for a while). It's a country that is producing so much, but seems to sell so little. That gap in the market is our windfall. It also makes creating a "new" brand all-the-harder to market and sell (especially at that price point).

Regardless - I hope you and Clay make it.

Well I hope we find a way that lets us all have some fun with it.

 

[LuxGentleman]

the right tie for your outfit ??
now in the OUTLET section the best D'avenza sartorial tie
with discounts of up to 90% on the retail price





Start your shopping now

 

[mangonboat]

Just a heads up, but this gorgeous black wool and mohair d'Avenza tuxedo is just waiting to be snapped up on ebay. Given that it was tailored by Hawkes & Co, No 1 Savile Row, it must be 1974 or earlier. I'd already have snagged it but a bit too snug for me. You couldn't buy this suit now for love or money. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAVENZA-Sa...hawl-Tuxedo-Suit-Pants-42-44-EUC/133183502609

 

[mangonboat]

Just a heads up, but this gorgeous black wool and mohair d'Avenza tuxedo is just waiting to be snapped up on ebay. Given that it was tailored by Hawkes & Co, No 1 Savile Row, it must be 1974 or earlier. I'd already have snagged it but a bit too snug for me. You couldn't buy this suit now for love or money. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAVENZA-Sa...hawl-Tuxedo-Suit-Pants-42-44-EUC/133183502609

it's gone....I realized there was some extra fabric where the jacket and pants had been taken in..its mine now

 

[jefferyd]

As some of you might know, d'Avenza was effectively set up originally as a facility for Chester Barrie and a man by the name of Clay became the first MD of the facility and brand we call d'Avenza. The rest, as they say, is history and following a spell where d'Avenza made some of the finest tailoring in the world, the brand lost its way of sorts having changed hands multiple times.

I work with an older pattern cutter who was working for Chester Barrie in England and was sent to work in the pattern room at D'Avenza in its early days. If I recall correctly the designer he was working under at the time went by the name of Tucci; apparently he was excellent. He showed me some garments they made back then and they were quite exceptional. If you think he might be useful to this project, I can make an introduction.

 

[ArchibaldRoh]

I work with an older pattern cutter who was working for Chester Barrie in England and was sent to work in the pattern room at D'Avenza in its early days. If I recall correctly the designer he was working under at the time went by the name of Tucci; apparently he was excellent. He showed me some garments they made back then and they were quite exceptional. If you think he might be useful to this project, I can make an introduction.

That would be fantastic if you could.

 

[jalebi]

Hello all, long time lurker on SF, first time poster.

I have been intrigued by the d'Avenza dead stock's excellent value proposition and have been looking at a few pieces. Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the plain d'Avenza tags and the d'Avenza tag with the cursive Roma? I saw some earlier posts suggesting it is merely an indicator of age. Would this suggest the one with the cursive Roma predates the simpler tag? I assume the tags say nothing of the quality, and both would be fantastic.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MarkWinter]

Hello all, long time lurker on SF, first time poster.

I have been intrigued by the d'Avenza dead stock's excellent value proposition and have been looking at a few pieces. Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the plain d'Avenza tags and the d'Avenza tag with the cursive Roma? I saw some earlier posts suggesting it is merely an indicator of age. Would this suggest the one with the cursive Roma predates the simpler tag? I assume the tags say nothing of the quality, and both would be fantastic.

Thanks in advance!

Hi @jalebi,

You can find differences in the making and fabrics used by D'avenza. Meaning they did many different types of jackets, from unconstructed casual jackets to fairly structured business suits and formal wear. At the same time, they don't have a 'diffusion line' with lover quality. All the garments were made in the same factory, fully canvassed. Always with some handwork involved depending on the garment. Fabrics are always top quality from British tweeds to fine woolens.

To answer your question, the labels are probably more to do with age, not quality.

 

[jalebi]

Hi @jalebi,

You can find differences in the making and fabrics used by D'avenza. Meaning they did many different types of jackets, from unconstructed casual jackets to fairly structured business suits and formal wear. At the same time, they don't have a 'diffusion line' with lover quality. All the garments were made in the same factory, fully canvassed. Always with some handwork involved depending on the garment. Fabrics are always top quality from British tweeds to fine woolens.

To answer your question, the labels are probably more to do with age, not quality.

Thank you for your answer Mark! So in effect they are all good (given there are no diffusions lines) and the age doesn't really matter given this is all deadstock. I suppose the only impact the age will have is on styling, which one should be able to assess from pics alone.

I see a lot of the deadstock on eBay seems to have dated looking three button jackets, while the two European based sellers (Satoriale and LuxGentleman) have much more modern looking garments.

I suppose I am a bit late to the d'Avenza game, but can anyone give me an indication of how much of the quality deadstock has sold? I.e. have a lot of the quality pieces been sold and done with, or is there still plenty of quality still out there? For example, I don't see too many solid pattern suits still left.

 

[MarkWinter]

Thank you for your answer Mark! So in effect they are all good (given there are no diffusions lines) and the age doesn't really matter given this is all deadstock. I suppose the only impact the age will have is on styling, which one should be able to assess from pics alone.

I see a lot of the deadstock on eBay seems to have dated looking three button jackets, while the two European based sellers (Satoriale and LuxGentleman) have much more modern looking garments.

I suppose I am a bit late to the d'Avenza game, but can anyone give me an indication of how much of the quality deadstock has sold? I.e. have a lot of the quality pieces been sold and done with, or is there still plenty of quality still out there? For example, I don't see too many solid pattern suits still left.

Your observations are correct, solid suits are harder to come by. However, there are still some nice ones out there. If you'd like I can send some examples in PM. Let me know.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

My understanding is the Brunello Cucinelli took over the D’Avenza operations as well and their tailors. I don’t believe the styling is the same and certainly the prices are higher.

 

[MarkWinter]

My understanding is the Brunello Cucinelli took over the D’Avenza operations as well and their tailors. I don’t believe the styling is the same and certainly the prices are higher.

Yes, the garments currently produced are different. There is a substantial stock available still, which was made prior to the acquisition. We were referring to those.