For my dearest Kyle: dinner at the French Laundry

[foodguy]

Originally Posted by Roikins

Likely also because then, they were interested in cooking, as opposed to now, where they seem more interested in focusing on the "local/farm-to-table/organic/etc." ingredients, rather than their preparation.

sorry, i'm calling bs on this. granted, the sermon-like way the whole ingredient thing is trotted out by every waiter or waitress is annoying. but buddy, i lived through tall food. i lived through the pure technique days. that was a lot of pretentious crap. any chef who ISN'T paying attention to his ingredients doesn't deserve a kitchen.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by gomestar

I find that age and the enjoyment of food are inversely related. Even my grandmother turned to bitching about her own cooking.

Well, here it is true. In the city we have lost the "best chef" around like four times. First from Masa's, then Sylvain Portay from the Ritz Carlton, then the guy who is now at L20. There was at least one more, but I can't remember. Then a bunch of other restaurants went downhill, like Fleur de Lys, which has become practically inedible. The reason, I imagine, is that SF has been struggling for a decade, so why would they want to be here. There is still good casual, or semi casual, food, but the top end stuff is pretty crappy now IMO.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Why do you think that is? I don't think it is just there, if we are talking about American restaurants.

The first really spectacular place in Boston was Vongerichten's first restaurant, but he only cooked here for a year before moving to New York. His departure initiated a fairly steady period of emulative improvement that got strangled by Todd English.

I almost think that we are either importing a worse class of chef from Europe these days or they aren't coming here in any numbers anymore. There's something lacking in the home grown talent.

My last two meals at Per Se sucked, and I won't go there anymore. And by "sucked'" I don't mean inedible, but an annoying mismatch between pretension and price on one side versus achievement and consistency on the other that leached any fun and joy out of the meal.

I have not had this feeling once overseas, even in places of faded glory.


- B

I think there are a lot of reasons. I think a lot of it has to do with the whole idea of chef as star, and so many people are out to make their name, and finally make a few dollars which cooks do not do, that they leave early and never get the basics that they really need, or at least that they got years ago. I also think that a lot of the "new cuisine" is pretty tasteless in the hands of people who are not super skilled, and that, in conjunction, it is difficult to be seen as a top restaurant unless you make that kind of stuff, especially in cities which see themselves as cutting edge.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by gomestar

I find that age and the enjoyment of food are inversely related. Even my grandmother turned to bitching about her own cooking.
There's wisdom in this comment. Right now, my favorite American restaurants tend to be simpler places that surprise me with ingredient quality that I don't expect at the price and that show some enthusiasm for the inherent and subtle flavor of things. Food 101 done well. So much more can be done than that, though. I don't think it is accidental that in many American cities, the after hours life of chefs tend to congregate around sushi places. Japanese food is Food 101 to the max, it's glory but also it's limit. - B

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

There's wisdom in this comment.

Right now, my favorite American restaurants tend to be simpler places that surprise me with ingredient quality that I don't expect at the price and that show some enthusiasm for the inherent and subtle flavor of things.

Food 101 done well.

So much more kind be done than that, though.


- B
I agree, and there is nothing wrong with that kind of food. I love it. I think foodguy is wrong about the high end, at least in San Francisco... they were better back then.

 

[gomestar]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

There's wisdom in this comment.

Right now, my favorite American restaurants tend to be simpler places that surprise me with ingredient quality that I don't expect at the price and that show some enthusiasm for the inherent and subtle flavor of things.

Food 101 done well.

So much more can be done than that, though.

I don't think it is accidental that in many American cities, the after hours life of chefs tend to congregate around sushi places. Japanese food is Food 101 to the max, it's glory but also it's limit.


- B

I wasn't saying it out of complete sarcasm. And some of my favorite places are also on the simple side - and I realized it a bit more by eating at the Fat Duck and then River Cafe on back to back days. Frankly, I loved both at equal levels but for entirely different reasons. Even my brother sent me a text yesterday that said "I need more of that carpaccio" in reference to a dish we had at River Cafe that wasn't much more than beef, parsley, beets, and a few other basic ingredients (yet we ordered again after cleaning the first plate of it).

 

[foodguy]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I agree, and there is nothing wrong with that kind of food. I love it. I think foodguy is wrong about the high end, at least in San Francisco... they were better back then.

you dare to question the FoodGuy?
seriously, i agree with all of it, and mine, too. i think vox and you are right about wanting simpler food done well. and i also think that a lot of the technique-driven stuff no longer seems interesting to us because we've seen behind the curtain.
i may have told this story before, but years ago i was having lunch with victor hazan (mr. marcella), and he was going on about american restaurant cooking. i was in the full flower of my italophile stage and so was going along. i asked why he thought it was and his answer has stuck with me.
"american chefs," he said, "cook to surprise while italian chefs cook to reassure. the only problem with cooking to surprise is that once you've surprised somebody with something, you are bound to come up with a new surprise." or as someone remarked about el bulli: it's like going to a carnival, but only a madman wants to go to a carnival every day.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by foodguy

i think it's mostly our growing sophistication as diners. we've been through the wow moments once, now we're looking for good food. personally, i was there 10 years ago ... and 20 years ago ... and though 10 years ago was better than 20 years ago, i think that the median level has increased since then. the highs might not seem as high as often because they're no longer a big surprise.

Supra-mediocre produce, thanks to the Whole Foods monopoly providing half the caloric intake of the contemporary American bourgeois class, and a more pervasive foodtainment culture might have raised the American median ever so slightly. It's hard to say given the strength of Frito-Lay and Gatorade as a dinner drink.

Yeah, that's a harrumph.


- B

 

[gomestar]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I don't think it is accidental that in many American cities, the after hours life of chefs tend to congregate around sushi places. Japanese food is Food 101 to the max, it's glory but also it's limit.


- B

solely for the purpose of debate, how much do you think the preference for Japanese food is due to factors like low price (I'm certain these chefs aren't eating at 15 East or Masa) or the late hours of operation?

 

[foodguy]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Supra-mediocre produce, thanks to the Whole Foods monopoly providing half the caloric intake of the contemporary American bourgeois class, and a more pervasive foodtainment culture might have raised the American median ever so slightly. It's hard to say given the strength of Frito-Lay and Gatorade as a dinner drink.
that's a valid point of view. but i would remind you that there are now really great restaurants in places like Birmingham, Ala., and Los Gatos, CA. for every reason there is to be cynical about where food is going, there's a different reason to be hopeful. YMMV

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by foodguy

sorry, i'm calling bs on this. granted, the sermon-like way the whole ingredient thing is trotted out by every waiter or waitress is annoying. but buddy, i lived through tall food. i lived through the pure technique days. that was a lot of pretentious crap. any chef who ISN'T paying attention to his ingredients doesn't deserve a kitchen.
But the thing is, it's not just with the server, but some of these new kitchens. There's a difference between paying attention to the ingredients and completely focusing on them to the detriment of everything else. It seems like you have new chefs opening places in SF that are trying to adopt a philosophy of not doing anything to their precious ingredients, instead almost going minimal with prep, so you can taste the soil in their neighborhood garden vegetables or the grass their local cow grazed on; there was some truth in Chang's comment about a "fig on a plate." I think I'd actually like to see a bit more pure technique at some of these places, or any.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by Roikins

But the thing is, it's not just with the server, but some of these new kitchens. There's a difference between paying attention to the ingredients and completely focusing on them to the detriment of everything else. It seems like you have new chefs opening places in SF that are trying to adopt a philosophy of not doing anything to their precious ingredients, instead almost going minimal with prep, so you can taste the soil in their neighborhood garden vegetables or the grass their local cow grazed on; there was some truth in Chang's comment about a "fig on a plate." I think I'd actually like to see a bit more pure technique at some of these places, or any.
I don't know. I kind of like that. I agree it goes too far sometimes, but good food is about clear flavors, IMO, and I'd certainly rather see something too minimal than a thousand ingredients on a plate and look at all of my pretty, pretty flowers.

 

[itsstillmatt]

FWIW, I might not understand what you guys are referring to as pure technique. I would consider it to be Robuchon/80s-90s style French food (pre-Atelier etc) where classic preparations were lightened and done perfectly, and I would not consider it to be a chemical stew. If we are going by my definition, I am happy to see more pure technique.

In other words, pure technique = a perfectly clear aspic which started out as a calf's foot and not as a powder.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by foodguy

that's a valid point of view. but i would remind you that there are now really great restaurants in places like Birmingham, Ala., and Los Gatos, CA. for every reason there is to be cynical about where food is going, there's a different reason to be hopeful. YMMV
Yes, I agree. Not to be too CE subforvm, but that is less about food and more about the deregionalization of American life and increased uniformity. It's a conceit of superficial Internet discussion that Americans are polarized. In contrast, what is true is that we are becoming more uniform and homogenized. For example, if we return to food, there are now restaurants in Greenville, SC that twenty years ago you would have seen only in metropolitan cities. But, there is also a decline in purely regional cooking and a coherent local aesthetic about food. It's a very American thing for divisions to fade over time that persist in other cultures, but whether that makes for better or worse eating is an open question. - B

 

[itsstillmatt]

There is a difference between polarized and regionalized. The decline of one can coincide with the increase in the other. Familiarity breeds contempt and all.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by gomestar

solely for the purpose of debate, how much do you think the preference for Japanese food is due to factors like low price (I'm certain these chefs aren't eating at 15 East or Masa) or the late hours of operation?

Hmmm. Those are good points, but they haven't come up when I've talked to chefs.

I don't think the notion of escaping from a day's worth of culinary conceit by eating cheap, raw, fresh fish late at night are mutually exclusive, though.

- B