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Fit advice on two sport jackets

schraiber

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I've got a couple or jackets, one I've owned for a couple months (brown houndstooth) and one I just got in (light brown/grey gun check) and I'm wondering what y'all think about the fit of each. I've got some of my own thoughts, but I think I'll keep them to myself for now to create an unbiased response, besides to say I know sleeves are too long on both. Also, ignore the pants, I had also just gotten them in so they're unhemmed and just slightly cuffed while I was trying them on. Sorry for being barefoot :)

IMG_20210331_173037429~2.jpg
IMG_20210331_173040881~2.jpg
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IMG_20210331_172729756~2.jpg
IMG_20210331_172735334~2.jpg
IMG_20210331_172750852~2.jpg
 

Phileas Fogg

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I think the both look fine. Beyond the sleeves, the only thing I see, when viewed from the back, is a bit too much suppression causing some wrinkling.
 

dieworkwear

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The light grey coat is scissoring inwards, but it may be from your posture. Otherwise, I think you can have a tailor finish up the sleeves and clean the back, and you'd be fine.
 

schraiber

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The light grey coat is scissoring inwards, but it may be from your posture. Otherwise, I think you can have a tailor finish up the sleeves and clean the back, and you'd be fine.
What do you mean exactly about scissoring inwards?
 
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dieworkwear

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What do you mean exactly about scissoring inwards?
My guess is that your issue is from your posture. Sometimes when posing for a camera or standing in front of a mirror, people will straighten their back and arms. I assume both of those sport coats are from Spier & Mackay and probably cut on the same pattern. I noticed a bit of rippling down the back of your sleeves, so I assume you're standing a bit straight -- straighter than you normally would. This may be the reason why the fronts are scissoring. In a more normal or natural posture, you may not see this happening.

But for future reference, this is what it means for the fronts to scissor:


IMG_20210331_172729756_2.jpeg



A coat should always hang straight up and down. You can tell this easily with patterns, as your eye can follow the line


tumblr_n2ji2bbJUC1rf1jvro1_1280.jpeg
tumblr_nve7juPD3m1rf1jvro1_1280.jpeg





Sometimes coats will swing the other way. This is an Anderson & Sheppard sport coat


as11.jpeg



Here's another Anderson & Sheppard coat. The original is on the far left; the corrected version is on the far right. The pattern should stand up and down..

mantonsemifoofed.jpeg



This is easier to see with patterns, but also something to look for in solid fabrics. You can tell from the "grain" of the fabric. This is again Anderson
Anderson-Sheppard-bespoke-jacket.jpeg
Anderson-Sheppard-style-breakdown.jpeg




My understanding is that this has to do with the balance of a coat. There's a lot of debate between tailors on whether the concepts "straightening" or "crookening" mean anything. I have heard different things from different tailors, and none seem to agree what those terms mean. But some years ago, I asked one of my tailors to film this video below to explain his view of the concept. I believe this scissoring issue is related to the crookening or straightening, but I'm not a tailor, so I can't say definitively. When buying a coat off the rack, this is not something easy to alter, so it's just something to look for. See whether the coat hangs straight from your shoulders


 

schraiber

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My guess is that your issue is from your posture. Sometimes when posing for a camera or standing in front of a mirror, people will straighten their back and arms. I assume both of those sport coats are from Spier & Mackay and probably cut on the same pattern. I noticed a bit of rippling down the back of your sleeves, so I assume you're standing a bit straight -- straighter than you normally would. This may be the reason why the fronts are scissoring. In a more normal or natural posture, you may not see this happening.

But for future reference, this is what it means for the fronts to scissor:


View attachment 1586623


A coat should always hang straight up and down. You can tell this easily with patterns, as your eye can follow the line


View attachment 1586624View attachment 1586625




Sometimes coats will swing the other way. This is an Anderson & Sheppard sport coat


View attachment 1586627


Here's another Anderson & Sheppard coat. The original is on the far left; the corrected version is on the far right. The pattern should stand up and down..

View attachment 1586626


This is easier to see with patterns, but also something to look for in solid fabrics. You can tell from the "grain" of the fabric. This is again Anderson
View attachment 1586628View attachment 1586630



My understanding is that this has to do with the balance of a coat. There's a lot of debate between tailors on whether the concepts "straightening" or "crookening" mean anything. I have heard different things from different tailors, and none seem to agree what those terms mean. But some years ago, I asked one of my tailors to film this video below to explain his view of the concept. I believe this scissoring issue is related to the crookening or straightening, but I'm not a tailor, so I can't say definitively. When buying a coat off the rack, this is not something easy to alter, so it's just something to look for. See whether the coat hangs straight from your shoulders


Wow, that was an incredibly detailed reply, profoundly grateful! 🙌🙌 I definitely leaned a lot!

I see what you mean re: my jacket. I'm sure I'm standing up straighter than normal in those shots, and indeed my normal posture is quite bad due to (as is the case for many of us) hunching over a computer all day. I'll keep this in mind for future purchases for sure!

Actually though the jackets are from different companies and have pretty different patterns: the darker one is Cavour and the lighter one, you guessed it, Spier and Mackay. One of my biggest concerns is length, where I think the Cavour jacket is slightly too short. It doesn't look so bad in that shot, but in e.g. this other shot (with bonus cat) it seems like it might be ~an inch too short on me. The S&M jacket is actually 2cm longer so I think that length is a bit better, but I'd be curious what others think. I'd love to be told the Cavour length is fine since I otherwise love the jacket :)

IMG_20210213_160743291~2.jpg
 

dieworkwear

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That Cavour does look too short to me. Many ready-to-wear coats nowadays, even from "classic-ish" brands, make short coats.

If you're buying more than, say, three or four sport coats, I encourage you to move up to The Armoury's Model 3 or No Man Walks Alone's Sartoria Carrara line. Not only are the coats longer, but they'll have a slightly extended shoulder line, which I think looks more flattering on a wider range of builds.

We had a long discussion about extended shoulders in this thread some years ago.



Also, please say hi to your cat for me.
 

pasadena man

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My guess is that your issue is from your posture. Sometimes when posing for a camera or standing in front of a mirror, people will straighten their back and arms. I assume both of those sport coats are from Spier & Mackay and probably cut on the same pattern. I noticed a bit of rippling down the back of your sleeves, so I assume you're standing a bit straight -- straighter than you normally would. This may be the reason why the fronts are scissoring. In a more normal or natural posture, you may not see this happening.

But for future reference, this is what it means for the fronts to scissor:


View attachment 1586623


A coat should always hang straight up and down. You can tell this easily with patterns, as your eye can follow the line


View attachment 1586624View attachment 1586625




Sometimes coats will swing the other way. This is an Anderson & Sheppard sport coat


View attachment 1586627


Here's another Anderson & Sheppard coat. The original is on the far left; the corrected version is on the far right. The pattern should stand up and down..

View attachment 1586626


This is easier to see with patterns, but also something to look for in solid fabrics. You can tell from the "grain" of the fabric. This is again Anderson
View attachment 1586628View attachment 1586630



My understanding is that this has to do with the balance of a coat. There's a lot of debate between tailors on whether the concepts "straightening" or "crookening" mean anything. I have heard different things from different tailors, and none seem to agree what those terms mean. But some years ago, I asked one of my tailors to film this video below to explain his view of the concept. I believe this scissoring issue is related to the crookening or straightening, but I'm not a tailor, so I can't say definitively. When buying a coat off the rack, this is not something easy to alter, so it's just something to look for. See whether the coat hangs straight from your shoulders


Very instructive video, although I had to watch it a couple of times to (hopefully) get the gist of it. It's one thing to read these concepts expressed in words, it is more illuminating to me to have the tailor walk through it with chalk on the pattern and fabric.
 

dieworkwear

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Very instructive video, although I had to watch it a couple of times to (hopefully) get the gist of it. It's one thing to read these concepts expressed in words, it is more illuminating to me to have the tailor walk through it with chalk on the pattern and fabric.
By chance, if you have other tailoring concepts you would like explained in this way, I may be able to get it filmed.
 

breakaway01

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Not a tailor but my understanding of the fronts scissoring is that this is simply a symptom of improper front/back balance for your posture, specifically that the front is too short and the back too long for your posture. This also results in the excess fabric in the small of your back and the hemline rising from front to back that you can see in the photos. Take the photos again in your normal posture (not so erect) and you’ll probably see that the balance problem goes away.

the Cavour jackets are definitely short—I have avoided them for this very reason. By the way your trouser hem looks quite short in your outdoor photo.
 

dieworkwear

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Short jackets have a way of emphasizing the hips in a way that I find unflattering. You can see this when you put the photos side by side.

IMG_20210331_173037429_2.jpg



You look slimmer in the Spier & Mackay, and heavier in the Cavour. The Spier & Mackay also has a more V-shaped figure, even though when you actually draw a line, the two coats are somewhat similar. The difference is only in length, but the optics are different in terms of the total silhouette


IMG_20210331_173037429_2.jpg




Personally dislike silhouettes like this on Kushner. The jacket is too slim and short. Very typical of a lot of tailoring nowadays


TIM200127_Kushner.Cover_.jpg





I think men look better in a fuller jacket -- fuller chest, an extended shoulder line, and longer length.

2.jpeg
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3.jpeg
14276514_1748493745402547_135366435_n.jpeg




Historically, the classic "idealized" male silhouette is a shoulder line that's wider than the hips. The classic "idealized" female silhouette is hips wider than the shoulder. I have no issue with more feminized forms in other areas of menswear, but generally prefer tailoring to follow a more classic Western proportion -- fuller chest, longer shoulder, and a V-shaped figure up top.

When buying a jacket, I think it helps to pay attention to this V-shaped silhouette, and whether a jacket is flattering your build.
 

schraiber

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Short jackets have a way of emphasizing the hips in a way that I find unflattering. You can see this when you put the photos side by side.

View attachment 1586696


You look slimmer in the Spier & Mackay, and heavier in the Cavour. The Spier & Mackay also has a more V-shaped figure, even though when you actually draw a line, the two coats are somewhat similar. The difference is only in length, but the optics are different in terms of the total silhouette


View attachment 1586699



Personally dislike silhouettes like this on Kushner. The jacket is too slim and short. Very typical of a lot of tailoring nowadays


View attachment 1586700




I think men look better in a fuller jacket -- fuller chest, an extended shoulder line, and longer length.

View attachment 1586701View attachment 1586702View attachment 1586703View attachment 1586704



Historically, the classic "idealized" male silhouette is a shoulder line that's wider than the hips. The classic "idealized" female silhouette is hips wider than the shoulder. I have no issue with more feminized forms in other areas of menswear, but generally prefer tailoring to follow a more classic Western proportion -- fuller chest, longer shoulder, and a V-shaped figure up top.

When buying a jacket, I think it helps to pay attention to this V-shaped silhouette, and whether a jacket is flattering your build.
This is great, and I think I basically agree! Although I don't know how much I like being compared to Kushner 😬

I think my problem with a lot of brands is that I have a pretty long torso relative to my legs, which results in jackets looking shorter than it "really is". I'll often be wearing the same size as the model, who is usually taller than me, but the jacket looks shorter on me than the model 🤷‍♂️

I've def been considering a step up to The Armoury for some time, particularly thinking of going full BIFL for a navy hopsack jacket I can pass down to the kids I don't plan to have, but obviously the price is significantly more than either of these jackets (like 4x more!)

The other thing that confused me about The Armoury is sizing. The Cavour here is a EU 48 and the S&M is a US40 Slim, and they have basically the same measurements, except for length obviously (the Cavour EU 48 is slightly larger than a S&M US 38 Contemporary). The Armoury EU 48 has a way bigger chest measurement than either of these but a way *smaller* waist measurement, and in addition is actually only one cm longer than the Cavour jacket, which I don't think is enough. I suppose that's led me to think I'd want to go for a EU 50 from The Armoury and just get it tailored down. Probably my real plan is to head to NYC some day when there isn't a global pandemic and actually try on stuff at The Armoury, rather than ordering online
 

schraiber

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@dieworkwear if you don't mind be bugging you again, about how much longer do you think a jacket should be than my Cavour jacket? I've attached a nice straight on pic where you can get a sense of the length in proportion to my whole body.

I'm trying to balance getting enough body length without making my legs (and arms) look more stubby than they already are. To the end of my thumb or so (about another inch) would get the jacket past the fork of my trousers, but many of the shots you shared have the jacket going a bit further down than the trouser fork... But to get that much length I think I'd need maybe 1.5-2 more inches, meaning I'd have to size up significantly in brands that don't offer a Tall length, or go for a Tall length, which seems like it might throw off the rest of the proportions since I'm actually only 5'10 or maybe 5'11'' if I stand up ramrod straight

IMG_20210403_173959108~2.jpg
 

dieworkwear

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@dieworkwear if you don't mind be bugging you again, about how much longer do you think a jacket should be than my Cavour jacket? I've attached a nice straight on pic where you can get a sense of the length in proportion to my whole body.

I'm trying to balance getting enough body length without making my legs (and arms) look more stubby than they already are. To the end of my thumb or so (about another inch) would get the jacket past the fork of my trousers, but many of the shots you shared have the jacket going a bit further down than the trouser fork... But to get that much length I think I'd need maybe 1.5-2 more inches, meaning I'd have to size up significantly in brands that don't offer a Tall length, or go for a Tall length, which seems like it might throw off the rest of the proportions since I'm actually only 5'10 or maybe 5'11'' if I stand up ramrod straight

View attachment 1587176
Length can be difficult to judge online because so much can be distorted through photos. Depending on the camera angle, a jacket may look shorter or longer than it is in real life.

The "rule of thumb" for jacket length is that the hem should bisect you halfway between your jacket's collar and the floor when you're wearing shoes. But you can wear a slightly shorter jacket for sport coats -- it looks sportier and more casual this way. How short is a matter of taste.

Personally, I would just send that jacket back, as I don't think it looks good on you. I think it would be expensive to alter and the results may not turn out well. Would be better to just find a new jacket model that fits you better off the rack.

Mark at The Armoury has a video on jacket length, which you may find useful.


 

schraiber

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Length can be difficult to judge online because so much can be distorted through photos. Depending on the camera angle, a jacket may look shorter or longer than it is in real life.

The "rule of thumb" for jacket length is that the hem should bisect you halfway between your jacket's collar and the floor when you're wearing shoes. But you can wear a slightly shorter jacket for sport coats -- it looks sportier and more casual this way. How short is a matter of taste.

Personally, I would just send that jacket back, as I don't think it looks good on you. I think it would be expensive to alter and the results may not turn out well. Would be better to just find a new jacket model that fits you better off the rack.

Mark at The Armoury has a video on jacket length, which you may find useful.


Hey, sorry to bug you once more... been percolating on this for a while, and would like some more feedback if you're in the mood :)

I agree with you overall---the jacket just looks "off" on me. However, I'm trying to figure out the big picture things I need to look for in future jackets to avoid this issue. The things I've come up with (besides sleeve length, which is trivial, and always impacts me since I have very short arms) are

1) Length. This jacket is at least an inch too short, possibly more (although if it's more than an inch too short I'm going to basically never find an OTR fit that works on me, since after perusing many, many brands I find it hard to find a jacket around my size that's more than an inch longer than this OTR)

2) Shoulders are probably too narrow. I think I have relatively wide hips and probably could go for wider shoulders to offset that. Given that I have pretty sloping shoulders this might require me to look into more padded shoulders

I've also got a couple of thoughts on things that are more details that could be tailored, mostly just trying to separate it out from the unfixable things:

3) Something is off about the chest-to-waist ratio here. This is possibly tailorable on this jacket---maybe it needs a bit more space in the chest and a bit less space in the waist?

4) Maybe sleeve width? It's a little hard to tell how much of this is confounded with the sleeves just being too long, but I have pretty skinny wrists so it might be worth having more tapered sleeves. Again, this is tailorable, so nbd if I can find a jacket that fits better otherwise.

It seems like probably issue #1 is the most important---in my minds eye this jacket looks a lot better if you make it ~an inch longer (and correspondingly move the button stance and pockets down obviously).
 

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