1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

First Chan suit received

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by jester, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. odoreater

    odoreater Senior member

    Messages:
    8,739
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Location:
    Elizabethtown
    Besides, I think this misses the point of nataurlat (sp?) original comment. He was implying that there is something inherent about Asians that makes them take less pride in their work than a Saville Row or Italian tailor takes. I doubt that this is true, and low wages would have no effect on this. There are people in third-world countries that chop wood for pennies that take great pride in the work that they do and do a quality job.

    I would attribute the poor quality of this suit to (1) having too many customers, (2) having a quick turnaround time, (3) having less fittings, and (4) bad luck. I would not automatically attribute to some lack of pride that Asians across the board have in their work product.
     
  2. Taliesin

    Taliesin Member

    Messages:
    22
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Location:
    District of Columbia
    If a mere lurker like myself could be permitted to jump in on this, I think a few points are clear.  First, the reference to dedication in work is limited to tailors, not all Asians, hence the comparison against Italy and Savile Row.  So I don't think it's plausible to read that statement as calling all Asians lazy.  Second, the remark, while vague, may refer to the author's perceptions of the cultural habits of Asian tailors.  Understood as such, it cannot be "racist" as that slur is reserved for thoughts that are premised on biological distinctions, whether real or invented.  Third, I just don't see how it could be "xenophobic" to suggest that certain tailors from other lands are less competent.  Xenophobia is a fear of foreigners.  

    Judging from the photos that started this thread, the only thing we have to fear is Chan itself...
     
  3. policy

    policy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Please note: it's not that I don't respect the work of a tailor, but in Asia, people are not as dedicated in their work than one would find on the Row or in Italy.
    If a mere lurker like myself could be permitted to jump in on this, I think a few points are clear. Â First, the reference to dedication in work is limited to tailors, not all Asians, hence the comparison against Italy and Savile Row. Â So I don't think it's plausible to read that statement as calling all Asians lazy. Â Second, the remark, while vague, may refer to the author's perceptions of the cultural habits of Asian tailors. Â Understood as such, it cannot be "racist" as that slur is reserved for thoughts that are premised on biological distinctions, whether real or invented. Â Third, I just don't see how it could be "xenophobic" to suggest that certain tailors from other lands are less competent. Â Xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. Â Judging from the photos that started this thread, the only thing we have to fear is Chan itself...
    Jump away: 1)Do you believe that one facet of a society can have negative characteristics while another does not, particularly if that facet is an occupation? 2)The posters perception is that Asians (Mongloids) are producing a sub-standard and inferior product to Europeans (Caucasoids), both of which are RACES, hence the comment is RACIST. 3)I believe it's Xenophobic because there is an underlying culture of hatred towards Asians on this board and another fashion board for this reason I believe: a)The bespoke industry is dying in Europe b)The bespoke industry is growing in Asia a1)If it becomes possible (or is possible) to obtain a bespoke garment from Asia for 1/2 or less the price than a European bespoke garment; the elitism which accompanies Saville Row clothing will be lessened in the eyes of those that have paid $3000+ for their suits. You saw this kind of attitude in American in the 70s when Japanese car manufacturers began to sell Hondas and Toyotas here. Thankfully you dont see anyone referring to Asian tailors as Slants or worse; at least we don't see it - I'm sure it's happening verbally.
     
  4. Alexander Kabbaz

    Alexander Kabbaz Senior member

    Messages:
    1,272
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2003
    Location:
    East Hampton & New York
    The poor fellow just wants to know about his suit. I don't think it will fit better, no matter what provision you invoke of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. However, there are various Federal and State statutes which do cover Hijaaking. Counsellors?
     
  5. odoreater

    odoreater Senior member

    Messages:
    8,739
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Location:
    Elizabethtown
    We're just amusing ourselves until he comes in and tells us how Chan is going to rectify the situation. There isn't really anything more to say about the original poster's situation until we have this information.
     
  6. kabert

    kabert Senior member

    Messages:
    2,093
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    I recall seeing pictures of a Chan suit that Kai had made that was an entirely different cut/style that yours. Kai's was basically a classic cut -- some would say boring or traditional. Nothing "contemporary" about it. I think the suit you received has a bit of a contemporary style to it, both from the looks and your description. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you are looking for.

    Also, it looks as though you stand with one shoulder lower than the other, which may account for the sleeve issue, at least in part.
     
  7. Vintage Gent

    Vintage Gent Senior member

    Messages:
    2,748
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Location:
    The People's Republic of Galveston
    I noticed that myself. Still, any tailor worth his salt should be able to navigate the idiosyncrasies of our bodies.
     
  8. Taliesin

    Taliesin Member

    Messages:
    22
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Location:
    District of Columbia
    Well, sure. Â I think that we see that all the time. Â For example, people say that the Russians make great vodka, but not great cars. Â I don't think a less-than-positive review of Russian automobiles reveals contempt for all things Russian.
    That's one interpretation, but given the racial diversity of modern Europe, I would assume that the writer was drawing a distinction between nationalities. Â I'm sure that the Row and the various factories in Italy both employ non-British or non-Italians, and even non-Europeans. Â Thus, the tailoring cultures in these different places are just that: Â cultures. Â Not racial characteristics. Â
    I too am glad that there's no name-calling. Â However (and I'm too young to know this first hand), wasn't it the case that Japanese cars really took off in the United States because they were affordable and good quality? Â The point the original writer was trying to make, I think, was that this Chan suit reveals the opposite state of affairs: Â an inferior product. Â Moreover, I think a little national pride is healthy. Â If an Italian or a Brit (and I am neither) said that his country's tailoring is the best, and better than anything found anywhere else, I wouldn't read that as "racist" or "xenophobic," but rather as an assertion of pride. Â Pride is good, so long as it doesn't turn ugly.
     
  9. policy

    policy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    1)Do you believe that one facet of a society can have negative characteristics while another does not, particularly if that facet is an occupation?
    Well, sure. Â I think that we see that all the time. Â For example, people say that the Russians make great vodka, but not great cars. Â I don't think a less-than-positive review of Russian automobiles reveals contempt for all things Russian.
    That's one interpretation, but given the racial diversity of modern Europe, I would assume that the writer was drawing a distinction between nationalities. Â I'm sure that the Row and the various factories in Italy both employ non-British or non-Italians, and even non-Europeans. Â Thus, the tailoring cultures in these different places are just that: Â cultures. Â Not racial characteristics. Â
    I too am glad that there's no name-calling. Â However (and I'm too young to know this first hand), wasn't it the case that Japanese cars really took off in the United States because they were affordable and good quality? Â The point the original writer was trying to make, I think, was that this Chan suit reveals the opposite state of affairs: Â an inferior product. Â Moreover, I think a little national pride is healthy. Â If an Italian or a Brit (and I am neither) said that his country's tailoring is the best, and better than anything found anywhere else, I wouldn't read that as "racist" or "xenophobic," but rather as an assertion of pride. Â Pride is good, so long as it doesn't turn ugly.
    I have a problem with racial pride, not national pride. The tailor pejoratively labeled Asians as inferior tailors, and Brits and Italians as superior tailors - across the board. There are undoubtedly horrible British and Italian tailors and fantastic Asian (Indian, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, etc.) tailors. and Vice Versa. The pejorative that Asians are inferior craftsman is despicable though, and flat out racist. And that's what was said, PERIOD.
     
  10. newyorker

    newyorker Senior member

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    I am aware that Naturlaut is Asian, but that does not change anything. Just because they have a higher workload does not mean that they are:

     
  11. bryce330

    bryce330 Senior member

    Messages:
    804
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    (Taliesin @ April 25 2005,12:40) Quote 1)Do you believe that one facet of a society can have negative characteristics while another does not, particularly if that facet is an occupation?
    Well, sure. Â I think that we see that all the time. Â For example, people say that the Russians make great vodka, but not great cars. Â I don't think a less-than-positive review of Russian automobiles reveals contempt for all things Russian.
    That's one interpretation, but given the racial diversity of modern Europe, I would assume that the writer was drawing a distinction between nationalities. Â I'm sure that the Row and the various factories in Italy both employ non-British or non-Italians, and even non-Europeans. Â Thus, the tailoring cultures in these different places are just that: Â cultures. Â Not racial characteristics. Â
    I too am glad that there's no name-calling. Â However (and I'm too young to know this first hand), wasn't it the case that Japanese cars really took off in the United States because they were affordable and good quality? Â The point the original writer was trying to make, I think, was that this Chan suit reveals the opposite state of affairs: Â an inferior product. Â Moreover, I think a little national pride is healthy. Â If an Italian or a Brit (and I am neither) said that his country's tailoring is the best, and better than anything found anywhere else, I wouldn't read that as "racist" or "xenophobic," but rather as an assertion of pride. Â Pride is good, so long as it doesn't turn ugly.
    I have a problem with racial pride, not national pride. The tailor pejoratively labeled Asians as inferior tailors, and Brits and Italians as superior tailors - across the board. There are undoubtedly horrible British and Italian tailors and fantastic Asian (Indian, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, etc.) tailors. and Vice Versa. The pejorative that Asians are inferior craftsman is despicable though, and flat out racist. And that's what was said, PERIOD.[/quote] Dude, you need to chill out. The post was clearly referring to Asian TAILORS, not Asian "craftsmen" in general. I don't think someone posting about automobiles or high-end electronics would have the same opinion about the merits of Asian work product as compared to that of the UK or Italy. Second, as someone else pointed out, Naturlaut is himself Asian, so your ranting about racism is entirely misplaced. Finally, the post itself was largely accurate and based on facts, not prejudices. Asian tailors are primarily associated with low-cost, high-volume operations that sell through tours of American and European cities as well as to tourists visiting their countries. The typical Asian custom suit is produced based on one set of measurements that takes 5 or 10 minutes. Savile Row and Italian custom tailors, on the other hand, have a long tradition of quality workmanship and although they also do tours of American cities, they also have clients from around the world who visit them to have suits made. Moreover, most of them require multiple measurement and fitting sessions of an hour or more. I'm certainly not aware of any Asian tailors who have the same heritage and reputation as A&S, Huntsman, Battistoni, etc., etc., and you certainly don't see any Savile Row or Italian tailors charging $400 for a "custom" suit. You of all people should know the differences because of that awful piece of crap Ravis suit you posted on Ask Andy. While that may be primarily your fault for providing poor measurements and not specifying precisely what you wanted, it's difficult to imagine any Savile Row or Italian firm providing you with a similar garment.
     
  12. Carlo

    Carlo Senior member

    Messages:
    1,027
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Policy,

    Since you are the academic and love definitions I would suggest you look up 'revisionist history'.

    I was happy to let that thread on Andy's drop but for those who missed it, I believe that it was you, sir, who displayed an unforgivable cruelty and lack of sensitivity when you made your little remark about the Special Olympics.

    So let's review:
    You accused those who responded to your thread of bigotry because they suggested that you could not expect Savile Row bespoke quality when spending $399 for a made to measure suit in Thailand.

    You took great offense to the suggestion that perhaps your own measurements were fallible.  This after you announced that the back of your jacket lacked a canvas interlining and displayed a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of fabrics when you failed to differentiate between micronage and weight.  You then proudly announced the 17 changes you demanded be made to your 'fully bespoke suit', displaying once again a complete lack of understanding regarding the term bespoke.

    Some people were tough on you, others helpful.  I had no interest in pointing out that your ignorance was only exceeded by the volume and arrogance with which you proclaimed your false assumptions.

    Some of the 'effeminate' posters you accused of being racist against those with darker than pale English skin were in fact several shades beyond George Hamilton on the pigmentation chart and, in fact, Asian in ancestry.

    So let's be clear:  You opine loudly about a subject in which the sum total of your knowledge creates a void that makes a black hole seem crowded by comparison.  Then when it is pointed out to you, politely by some, not so politely by others you engage in the sophomoric sideshow trick of screaming racism and questioning the relative masculinity of those to whom you are shrieking.  That's an ad hominem attack.  It's a debate trick to use when you are utterly devoid of a substantive response.  It goes like this:
    Substantive Question:  Sir, I present these 12 facts that counter the opinion you just expressed.
    Ad hominem response:  Yeah, but you are a racist fag and a retard

    One has to listen closely to discern the slight difference in weight between those two methods of persuasion but the difference is important.

    I was willing to walk away from that whole argument in disgust without giving you a public over the head wedgie but you made a crucial mistake:  You went and displayed a bigotry of your own with a comment that was so far beyond the limits of common decency as to make the Klan look compassionate.  You proclaimed that winning an argument with the folks on the board was like winning in the special olympics - even if you were to win you would still be retarded.

    Having spent several years working with disabled children, having coached and mentored with the Special Olympics and having at least an ounce of decency within me I concluded that you are not just an arrogant bigot - you are also unimaginably cruel and vicious.

    So you can opine at will regarding your fully bespoke Super 100 weight, rear-canvassed suit about which you know very little but for you to self righteously point around the room while screaming xenophobia and racism is laughable.  

    Perhaps you should have remained silent and allowed others to think you a fool rather than opening your yap and removing all remaining doubt.

    My apologies to the rest of the forum for this off topic rant.  I make it a practice to bite my lip and avoid the pissing contest threads but well, Policy's cute little comment about children with mental disabilities put me over the edge.  

    I will behave now J, no need to click the 'ban' button

    EDITED TO NOTE: I'm not opining on the comments about Asian tailoring on THIS thread, just Policy's assertion that the beating he took on another thread was due to racism and not due to his own ignorance and arrogance.
     
  13. newyorker

    newyorker Senior member

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    I beg to differ. Being Asian does not give one the moral license to be racist to any race, including one's own. The point here is that Asian tailors were described as not as dedicated in their art as their Savile Row and Italian counterparts. This is not the same thing as saying that they produce an inferior garment due to a myraid of other reasons (high workload, inferior technology). But I will let this argument go. [​IMG] While I read many posts here that stereotype homosexuals and Asians, I don't see many that stereotype heterosexuals and Caucasians. It's not that hard to refrain from being -- or posting messages that seem -- racist or sexist or homophobic. Why must we still engage in this practice?
     
  14. NewYorkBuck

    NewYorkBuck Senior member

    Messages:
    482
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Good grief. I really cant believe where this thread has gone since I read it this morning.
     
  15. Alexander Kabbaz

    Alexander Kabbaz Senior member

    Messages:
    1,272
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2003
    Location:
    East Hampton & New York
    St. Carlo: Game / Set / Match.
     
  16. policy

    policy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    The reason that you won't see people knocking Asian craftsmen is because unlike tailoring, manufacturing is a science, tailoring is completely subjective, there are absolutely no rules in fashion which are scientific, they are all esoteric.

    "Second, as someone else pointed out, Naturlaut is himself Asian, so your ranting about racism is entirely misplaced."

    Someone that's Asian can be racist against Asians, just like Blacks can be racist against Blacks, and Whites can be racist against Whites. Just because you are a race doesn't mean you can't make racist statements about another race. If a Black people says that Blacks are lazy, is he making a racist statement? YES. Just because someone is the same race as the race they are DENIGRATING doesn't make them immune from prosecution.

    "Finally, the post itself was largely accurate and based on facts, not prejudices"

    Let's see which weak assed motherfucking FACTS you provide us with:

    "Asian tailors are primarily associated with low-cost, high-volume operations that sell through tours of American and European cities as well as to tourists visiting their countries."

    OPINION.

    "The typical Asian custom suit is produced based on one set of measurements that takes 5 or 10 minutes."

    OPINION.

    " Savile Row and Italian custom tailors, on the other hand, have a long tradition of quality workmanship and although they also do tours of American cities, they also have clients from around the world who visit them to have suits made."

    OPINION.

    "Moreover, most of them require multiple measurement and fitting sessions of an hour or more.
    I'm certainly not aware of any Asian tailors who have the same heritage and reputation as A&S, Huntsman, Battistoni, etc., etc., and you certainly don't see any Savile Row or Italian tailors charging $400 for a "custom" suit."

    First OPINION, second FALSEHOOD. You can get custom suits in Italy for well under $400 US dollars. Why don't you try taking a trip there?

    "You of all people should know the differences because of that awful piece of crap Ravis suit you posted on Ask Andy. While that may be primarily your fault for providing poor measurements and not specifying precisely what you wanted, it's difficult to imagine any Savile Row or Italian firm providing you with a similar garment."

    OPINION.

    Wow, your facts were really decimating to my argument. I'm not sure what kind of source citations they require at Burger King or wherever else you're employed, but at a job which requires real facts and sources, you sir would have been SERVED.
     
  17. STYLESTUDENT

    STYLESTUDENT Senior member

    Messages:
    1,140
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Location:
    SE Michigan (frequent NYC visitor)
    Anyone who mocks children with disabilities and the need for them to participate in a group setting such as the Special Olympics should not participate in this forum. Period. To abuse Naturlaut, who has as good taste as anyone on this forum, is also unforgiveable. I don't know who you are, Policy, but I'd like to hear the last from you.
     
  18. Dakota rube

    Dakota rube Senior member

    Messages:
    14,501
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Location:
    A bit better than yesterday, all day vomiting for
    Fixed your post. Â [​IMG] Dope.
     
  19. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Senior member

    Messages:
    2,686
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Policy, you are a lunatic and an idiot.

    Now that is OPINION -- albeit one supported by FACTS.
     
  20. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

    Messages:
    8,602
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    I would have to take issue with Bryce 330's statement to the effect that the typical Asian custom suit is based one set of measurements that takes 5 to 10 minutes. When I was measured for my first Chan suit last fall, Patrick Chu spent a good deal of time (probably at least a half-hour) measuring me and the suit I was wearing and photographing me from several angles. I can recall at least one post on this forum from a gentleman who found Hemrajani to be a good deal more meticulous and thorough than Patrick. Are the products of Chan and Hemrajani "typical Asian custom suits"? Maybe, maybe not.

    I will add that I thought it would be unrealistic to expect perfection in a first order of this sort. Did I get perfection from Chan? No. I thought the sleeves were trifle longer than optimum and it could have had a bit more waist suppression. Did I get a handsome garment and value for money? Most definitely. This has been confirmed by the fact that I have been complimented on it a number of times by total strangers. I discussed the corrections I wanted with Patrick when I ordered my next garment from him last month, and he seemed very amenable to them. I'll be eager to see how my next garment turns out. Chan does make mistakes, but, then, I seem to recall a thread on the Andy Forum from a fellow who had all manner of problems with A&S of Savile Row, no less. One fellow did post a photo of a suit from Chan on which the sleeves were definitely too long. I believe (if it was the same guy) that they were going to correct this and give him a free shirt for his troubles on this matter, so evidently they do stand behind their products.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by