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First bespoke- but what to ask for?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by totenhosen, Jun 6, 2011.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think you're overthinking. If you're seeing a tailor to make you a bespoke suit, it's really solely his job to figure out how to fit your body. Talking about picking 'silhouettes' is a really more of a RTW discussion. If you ask your tailor for a "Milanese" silhouette (whatever that is), you'll be off to a bad start: he'll have no idea what you're talking about and you'll have no idea what you're going to get.
     
  2. cptjeff

    cptjeff Senior member

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    A key hole button hole on the lapel is a great NO. It looks tacky,

    Personal opinion.

    Dubious, as both are normal sewn by machine, and either can be done with exactly the same ease. It's a stylistic choice.

    You realize we are talking about a vestigial element that serves absolutely no function other than occasionally holding a flower, right? It exists for purely stylistic reasons as it is.

    To a degree? They're completely unnecessary. They serve no purpose other than to show how expensive your suit is and to screw up any alterations you or others might want to make in the future.
     
  3. chet

    chet Member

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    What does he charge?
     
  4. DerekS

    DerekS Senior member

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    a reach around. make sure to tip an extra five spot.

    honestly...make sure to be extra specific on the bottom of the jacket. ( ie open or closed quarters.) also being ultra specific on shoulders. After that, any imperfection can be easily fixed.

    but a reach around would be pretty cool too.
     
  5. guest

    guest Senior member

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    i mean the pants details on my last comments. not the jacket. so pleats and cuffs on the pants not the jacket. if you have athletic thighs reverse pleats work. plus they're the italian style of pleat! not the fuddy duddy kind. i would not cuff or pleat on a pair of brioni trousers but i think ya need a bigger silhouette than that. mafoofan has a good point. he won't know what you're talking about. i brought something rtw to have copied coz it was the silhouette that worked on me. if i didn't i'd just ask for a 2 button navy and another med gray for the 2nd suit with whatever other deets you want. i'd go with the same style of trousers i like plus side vents and that's it. i'm actually switching tailors when i move to another country and this is my game plan.
     
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You need to abandon the RTW frame-of-mind to achieve and appreciate good bespoke. To have a suit copied or impose a 'silhouette' you've seen in RTW makes no sense to me. It's like going to a baker and asking him to make you an Entemann's chocolate cake. If all you really want is Entemann's, get Entemann's. Too many people try bespoke and are disappointed because they were hoping for an intangible upgrade over their favorite RTW suit. It's about getting a better cake then you've come to expect, not a better Entemann's.
     
  7. poorlawstudent

    poorlawstudent Well-Known Member

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    Err, since when?

    eh since time immemorial.
     
  8. Kuro

    Kuro Senior member

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    You need to abandon the RTW frame-of-mind to achieve and appreciate good bespoke....

    gold
     
  9. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't read all of this, but I urge you to rethink 13 oz cloth for SE Asia. Unless you are as cold blooded as a lizard, you will boil alive in that most of the year.

    Dugdale is good, strong stuff, though, good choice.
     
  10. repp_fink

    repp_fink Well-Known Member

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    I think you're overthinking. If you're seeing a tailor to make you a bespoke suit, it's really solely his job to figure out how to fit your body. Talking about picking 'silhouettes' is a really more of a RTW discussion. If you ask your tailor for a "Milanese" silhouette (whatever that is), you'll be off to a bad start: he'll have no idea what you're talking about and you'll have no idea what you're going to get.

    Right. Particularly since OP is concerned about certain characteristics of his body type, this is exactly the point of working with a tailor (see the "double vent / single vent" question, etc.).
     
  11. repp_fink

    repp_fink Well-Known Member

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    Concerning yourself with "thrift" use is a nonsense.

    Or a joke that was too deadpan, I suppose. Next time, I'll use three smileys and a blinktag.
     
  12. gshen

    gshen Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    I didn't read all of this, but I urge you to rethink 13 oz cloth for SE Asia. Unless you are as cold blooded as a lizard, you will boil alive in that most of the year.

    Dugdale is good, strong stuff, though, good choice.


    +1 on both counts. TBH you'll boil alive in anything more than a linen shirt in Singapore, assuming of course you haven't acclimatized to the hellish conditions.

    I also own a suit in Dugdale's new fine worsted and like it very much.
     
  13. yachtie

    yachtie Senior member

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    [2cents]

    2 btn SB (3 roll 2 is somewhat an americanism)

    flapped pockets

    solid cloth 10 oz or so



    Lapel width is driven by the size of your head and shoulders. It doesn't matter what the "fashion" is.

    Jacket should cover your butt and avoid the present trend toward skinny/pegged trousers- when that fashion changes you won't look like a dork.

    Get pleats, you'll thank me later.

    [/2cents]
     
  14. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    Or a joke that was too deadpan, I suppose. Next time, I'll use three smileys and a blinktag.

    Maybe but be careful that the inexperienced don't actually follow your suggestions.
     
  15. totenhosen

    totenhosen Active Member

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    A perception exists that a straight or "bar tack" lapel buttonhole is the mark of a higher-quality jacket. This is not necessarily true, since both straight and keyhole buttonholes can be made by machine. There's an argument to be made for requesting the straight buttonhole in order to live up to the stereotype, but you should go with your own preferences regardless. [​IMG] I've heard that back in the 1930s, the keyhole buttonhole was more difficult and time-consuming since all buttonholes were sewn by hand, and tailors would intentionally sew keyholes on the lapels to advertise the quality of their work. There's some indication that Hugo Boss really took this to the mainstream, but I'll leave that up to the people on the forum who know what they're talking about. Anyway, tl;dr : both are acceptable, neither reflects on the quality of the work, though the wider public apparently believes the keyhole = a lesser quality suit. Offhand, I'd suggest the double vent, simply because the single vent might tend to spread open to an undesirable degree as you move. Still, you should consult with your tailor on this one -- since you'll be consulting in person, he is in the best position to tell you what will suit your body. Years from now, when you've donated your jacket to some worthy thrift, it will finally pay off -- by making it difficult for the person who buys your jacket to get the sleeves adjusted. [​IMG] Actually, you're correct in that it's mainly just for showing off the fact that the suit wasn't OTR, and was actually made to fit you, by hand. No need to be so gauche as to walk around with the last button undone -- it's your little secret.
    Thanks that's plenty explanation. Appreciate it as it clears it up. I actually prefer the keyhole but I'll decide with my tailor there. I'll likely go with single for the exact reason you mention. As for walking around with a button undone I'm not sure who'd be impressed.. . In Australia we call that being a wanker.. gauche is certainly diplomatic (thank you for adding to my vocabulary) [​IMG]
    Here speaks the voice of inexperience. 43 posts. A key hole button hole on the lapel is a great NO. It looks tacky, is mark of cheaper RTW and serves no additional function. It matters not how they are made (hand is preferable) but appearance is vital. It is not a stereotype in the derogatory manner you suggest merely a marker of good appearance. Two vents look far better than the alternatives. Working cuff buttons are to a degree unnecessary these days but nonetheless as a marker of a better suit you should have them. Concerning yourself with "thrift" use is a nonsense.
    Thanks for your input. I'll put a +1 in the "for straight lapel hole and working cuff buttons". Not sure if you mean inexperience as a forum poster or sartorial knowledge but I would say your summary is exactly what fink was referring to? I think I took repp_fink's post more constructively/closer to what was intended but more opinions is good for this thread. I'm leaning toward two vents too - cheers. One thing I would like to know though is when you say it's to a degree unnecessary what you mean. What were they used for in the first place?
    I think you're overthinking. If you're seeing a tailor to make you a bespoke suit, it's really solely his job to figure out how to fit your body. Talking about picking 'silhouettes' is a really more of a RTW discussion. If you ask your tailor for a "Milanese" silhouette (whatever that is), you'll be off to a bad start: he'll have no idea what you're talking about and you'll have no idea what you're going to get.
    Thanks - My boss says the same thing. I'm like that so you're spot on. I agree with your point though, I just wanted to have "some" idea. I don't like going to any professional and not knowing anything because ultimately they're just human you have to live the results, so by knowing more I know which parts I can and should influence more than others. Also point taken on asking for a localised style - I definitely wasn't planning on doing this but it was definitely helpful for me to google up some of the brands mentioned so I could get an idea of what I think looks good on other's in relation to their body shape/type/build etc.
    Personal opinion. Dubious, as both are normal sewn by machine, and either can be done with exactly the same ease. It's a stylistic choice. You realize we are talking about a vestigial element that serves absolutely no function other than occasionally holding a flower, right? It exists for purely stylistic reasons as it is. To a degree? They're completely unnecessary. They serve no purpose other than to show how expensive your suit is and to screw up any alterations you or others might want to make in the future.
    Thanks. I think your post adds to the fact they're redundant..
    What does he charge?
    She. $850SGD for CMT and from $950SGD for shop supplied material. I doubt this includes any extras.. I'm also unsure what extras would be.
    a reach around. make sure to tip an extra five spot. honestly...make sure to be extra specific on the bottom of the jacket. ( ie open or closed quarters.) also being ultra specific on shoulders. After that, any imperfection can be easily fixed. but a reach around would be pretty cool too.
    I find it hard sometimes when thrashing to give a good rub.. Shoulders I've heard is the one to get right above all else. Will leave this in the tailors hands and definitely will be mentioning it if something is uncomfortable. Though I think having other SF'ers there it seems I'm the least qualified to be worried about this [​IMG]
    i mean the pants details on my last comments. not the jacket. so pleats and cuffs on the pants not the jacket. if you have athletic thighs reverse pleats work. plus they're the italian style of pleat! not the fuddy duddy kind. i would not cuff or pleat on a pair of brioni trousers but i think ya need a bigger silhouette than that. mafoofan has a good point. he won't know what you're talking about. i brought something rtw to have copied coz it was the silhouette that worked on me. if i didn't i'd just ask for a 2 button navy and another med gray for the 2nd suit with whatever other deets you want. i'd go with the same style of trousers i like plus side vents and that's it. i'm actually switching tailors when i move to another country and this is my game plan.
    Okay. Here we become subjective. Of course I think I'm awesomely athletic but I don't think I need pleats.. My legs aren't that big, I'm only really squatting 80kg's and pressing about 180-200 .. so definitely not in the big leagues or even close and I think I'm smaller than others pushing a little bit more (e.g. those pushing a bit more look twice as big sometimes). Thanks for making me aware of forward vs rear facing pleats though. I reckon I can get away with clean but I'll see what the tailor says and how the pants match the jacket etc.
    You need to abandon the RTW frame-of-mind to achieve and appreciate good bespoke. To have a suit copied or impose a 'silhouette' you've seen in RTW makes no sense to me. It's like going to a baker and asking him to make you an Entemann's chocolate cake. If all you really want is Entemann's, get Entemann's. Too many people try bespoke and are disappointed because they were hoping for an intangible upgrade over their favorite RTW suit. It's about getting a better cake then you've come to expect, not a better Entemann's.
    Thank you for re-iterating. No danger of that here and for the record I think you're right, being a total ignorant noob though there's still some value for me to be aware of what's out there. It's not like I have 15+ RTW suits in my wardrobe.
    I didn't read all of this, but I urge you to rethink 13 oz cloth for SE Asia. Unless you are as cold blooded as a lizard, you will boil alive in that most of the year. Dugdale is good, strong stuff, though, good choice.
    Thank you I have. The suit will be worn in Australia mostly and I've ordered the 8-9oz after being re-assured in this thread that's the right weight. I actually went with koolhistorian's suggestion of 8961. gshen also said that that range is quite good. Pretty excited, it should arrive next week along with the royal blue lining!
    Or a joke that was too deadpan, I suppose. Next time, I'll use three smileys and a blinktag.
    I got it.
    +1 on both counts. TBH you'll boil alive in anything more than a linen shirt in Singapore, assuming of course you haven't acclimatized to the hellish conditions. I also own a suit in Dugdale's new fine worsted and like it very much.
    Gerald - thank you for your advice in PMs and initial inspiration and recommendations. Glad you made it to the thread. I ended up getting the 8961 which is in the worsted range.
    [2cents] 2 btn SB (3 roll 2 is somewhat an americanism) flapped pockets solid cloth 10 oz or so Lapel width is driven by the size of your head and shoulders. It doesn't matter what the "fashion" is. Jacket should cover your butt and avoid the present trend toward skinny/pegged trousers- when that fashion changes you won't look like a dork. Get pleats, you'll thank me later. [/2cents]
    Thank you. I hate the skinny dorky stuff. I'm used to wearing baggy jeans and such (though I own thin designer ones too but something for every occasion I guess). Can you explain the pleated thing? I've owned some RTW suits that have pants with pleats and they're comfy to sit in but just don't look as clean. Is there something else I'm missing? What do you mean 3 roll 2 is an Americanism? Isn't it different than 2 button SB? I thought 3 roll 2 meant 2 visible and the third top button is rolled over with the lapel. Where as a straight out 2 button is just 2.. are you saying that the 3 roll 2 is Americanised style or Americanised terminology?
     
  16. yachtie

    yachtie Senior member

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    Bespoke is about comfort as much as anything. Good pants pleated or no will hang cleanly (but pleated pants are more comfrotable to sit in) 3 roll 2 is identified as an "American" look or affectation. For the most utility a straight 2 buttton would serve better. [​IMG]
     
  17. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    3 roll 2 is not an American thing exclusively, the Italians are crazy about it and the London "soft tailors" also do it, though not the rest of SR.
     
  18. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    3 roll 2 is not an American thing exclusively, the Italians are crazy about it and the London "soft tailors" also do it, though not the rest of SR.

    I would not agree that the "soft tailors" do it is the manner of the American mob. I rather think that the 'soft' approach suggests it with actually being cut and formed that way.
     
  19. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    Thanks for your input. I'll put a +1 in the "for straight lapel hole and working cuff buttons". Not sure if you mean inexperience as a forum poster or sartorial knowledge but I would say your summary is exactly what fink was referring to? I think I took repp_fink's post more constructively/closer to what was intended but more opinions is good for this thread. I'm leaning toward two vents too - cheers.

    Working cuff buttons are to a degree unnecessary these days but nonetheless as a marker of a better suit you should have them.

    One thing I would like to know though is when you say it's to a degree unnecessary what you mean. What were they used for in the first place?



    Working cuffs were originally favoured bu surgeons who used to unbutton their sleeves to roll them up whilst operating upon some hapless patient. Hence sometimes called 'surgeon's cuffs'.

    They are redundant to the extent that surgeons no longer carry out their duties thus and wear scrubs etc.
    They however not redundant as a measure of a well crafted bespoke suit.
     
  20. totenhosen

    totenhosen Active Member

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    Hi guys/gals,

    I hate to necromance a thread but I'm making an exception in case anyone ever searches this up and wants to see how it came out. Also for people who have posted.. I had a final fitting today..

    Firstly I wanted to say thank you again for everyone who posted on this thread to give advice. I now know what hacking is, how to request pockets, what is and isn't fair to expect, knowing what waist suppression is, weight of cloth, functional cuffs etc etc...

    In the end, following advice in this thread, other research and consultation with the tailor Nani: I went with 8961, functional cuffs, 5 pockets, dark purple full lining, fully canvassed (horsehair), no visible labels (inside), functioning boutonniere hole and holder, the pants have no pleats no cuffs just clean.. Slightly lighter buttons.. basically a first bespoke suit that's classic but not conservative.

    Oh, Nani was that cool I had two extra shirts made up in regrettably conservative material patterns and had my 3 best shirts altered to fit better :slayer:

    This is a fitting photo.. No pockets, not closed up... I'll up another one for fitting when I have another pic.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2011

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